[A reply to Bro. Cloud Articles on Lancaster's Music]
by Clayton Reed
[Note by Way of Life.. clayreed.net is no longer an active website and dead links have been removed.]
I am reluctant to speak publicly about this issue. I generally believe people like David Cloud and websites like Way of Life should be ignored as they do not represent the mainstream of the Independent Baptist world. I have remained silent even when I was the target of Mr. Cloud’s diatribe on a series of blog articles I released at [clayreed.net].
I felt no need to defend myself. My desire is to believe and practice the Scripture when it says:
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. (1 Corinthians 4:3-4)
However, when Mr. Cloud unjustly condemns friends, I cannot remain silent. I consider Paul Chappell to be a friend.
Mr. Cloud opined for many paragraphs about the song “Shout to Lord” and Lancaster Baptist Church. Mr. Cloud presumed to give counsel about how Pastor Chappell should put an end to the CCM influence at Lancaster and bring in knowledgeable people (recommended by Mr. Cloud) to “fix” the problem.
In many ways, the entire “rant” sounded similar to the same historic criticism of new songs. For example:
I am no music scholar, but I feel I know appropriate church music when I hear it. Last Sunday’s new hymn – if you can call it that – sounded like a sentimental love ballad one would expect to hear crooned in a saloon. If you insist on exposing us to rubbish like this – in God’s house! – don’t be surprised if many of the faithful look for a new place to worship. The hymns we grew up with are all we need. (1863, a letter written about the song “Just As I Am”)
What is wrong with the inspiring hymns with which we grew up? When I go to church, it is to worship God, not to be distracted with learning a new hymn. Last Sunday’s was particularly unnerving. The tune was un-singable and the new harmonies were quite distorting. (1890, a letter written concerning the new song “What a Friend We Have in Jesus”)
In addition to the substance of the criticism, I find it particularly difficult to believe that Mr. Cloud boasted about not reaching out to Pastor Chappell before he released his diatribe. Mr. Cloud admitted that he did not call Pastor Chappell to discuss. ( I endeavored to contact Mr. Cloud via email about this privately before releasing this statement. He did not respond.)
Perhaps you are interested in my take on Paul Chappell and CCM.
I recently started a church in Southlake, Texas. Paul and I have had many talks about our church and some of our plans. Pastor Chappell has been disappointed with my choices privately because of my preference of music, and it has been a strain on our working together. I know as well as anybody — and better than Mr. Cloud — how Paul feels about CCM. Mr. Cloud is absolutely wrong at gauging Paul’s heart about this issue. If you like traditional music done well, there is no better place than Lancaster.
Many young guys who have grown up in the Independent Baptist world have simply walked away because of the hyper-fundamentalist, ultra-separationist mentality people like Mr. Cloud purvey — a betrayal of the true heart of biblical fundamentalism.
In one sense, this response is not for the benefit of Mr. Cloud. I do not believe that engaging critics like Mr. Cloud on your own behalf is particularly helpful. Some one said, “Wrestling with an angry blogger is like wresting with a pig– you both get dirty, but the pig likes it.”
This response is more for the rest of us. When we listen to people like Mr. Cloud, what does it say about us? If God hates sowing discord, and judging another man’s servant, and distorting the truth, why should we give any kind of hearing to people who specialize in discord, judgmentalism, and division?
I grew up in Peter Ruckman’s church. For years, I watched firsthand what that kind of attitude produced. When you give credence to the thinking of people who exhibit wicked behaviors and hatefulness, it leads to a cycle of lunacy. The intelligent flee, and the unity of the Spirit is diminished. Baptists should forcefully repudiate the kind of nonsense Mr. Cloud publishes.
We are due for better leadership in our day. Men who are convinced but humble. Authentic believers who privately work through issues with each other before ever even considering making our differences public. We need heartfelt face-to-face talks, instead of cheap political potshots. We also need to speak up when our friends are attacked.
I call on all our Baptist brothers to stand up to the blog bullies and internet hit jobs. Tell men like Mr. Cloud in no uncertain terms: “Leave Chappell, Messer, Sexton, Schaap and whoever else alone. We don’t always agree, but we know a self-serving bully like you when we see one.”
41 Comments
- Jon jackson
Feb 25 2011
Well said! Great post! Amen & Amen! - Micah
Feb 25 2011
Well said! Hopefully, Biblical thinking will prevail over the angry rhetoric of David Cloud and his ilk.
Paul Chappell and I might not agree on everything, but the Bible never calls me to criticize a brother over an open-handed issue like music style (or composer). - Jerry
Feb 25 2011
Well written. - Todd Shields
Feb 25 2011
Well said my friend. I wouldn’t have ever found out about this foolishness without your post. I am glad to have a chance to defend Pastor Paul Chappell. He was a huge help to us in San Diego as we restarted Crosspointe a few years ago. He supported us in so many ways. One principle that stands out is that we don’t have to be in 100% agreement to love, support and defend a fellow brother in Christ. Not to mention that I should have respect for the local church. If I find myself in a disagreement with a Pastor or Church I should take to the Lord and ask the Lord to change their heart or my heart. Again thanks Clay. - Bobby Herrell
Feb 25 2011
I not only consider Paul Chappell a friend, but moreover, a servant of God. As God’s servant, he is accountable to God. Romans 14:4 should be the final matter on Cloud’s “ministry” of repeating “fundamental gossip” about every other ministry which does not look like his own and calling it news.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Go sit in the services of Lancaster Baptist Church and see for yourself…the music is definitely Christ-honoring. - John M. Brown
Feb 25 2011
Well done Clay. - John W Vaprezsan
Feb 25 2011
It never ceases to amaze me at those who use the very book God gave us to build one another and to unconditionally love one another with, becomes a wrecking ball for those who disagree with our methods. The issue for many IFB Pastors, past and present, is CONTROL. There is one Judge. He has wounds in His hands and feet. I am strong in my beliefs and disagree with many. The great thing about being an IFB is that of Individual Soul Liberty. Control desires to remove this and repalce the Holy Spirit. I care not to defend man, we have little worth defending. I do defend the Biblical principle taught by the Saviour, “Let them alone.” - Wesley W. Kavanagh
Feb 25 2011
Thank you for your comments, Clay. They represent many of us who repudiate Mr. Cloud’s style of “fundamentalism.” I am sorry to say that I was once a part of that, even promoted it. God by His grace and mercy has led me out of that kind of cultish thinking. I believe that there are many more young historic fundamentalists who have seen the damage that Mr. Cloud and his ilk have done to what they call “fundamentalism”, and rejected it. Keep preaching the Word and following the Lord. - Jon Jackson
Feb 26 2011
While I understand that many would rather I not say anything on this matter or that we should just leave these negative websites alone…when my friend (and Pastor Chappell is my friend & I love Him & His family) are attacked, we who know better must stand up for what is right. One day when we ourselves are attacked, we should pray that we have friends that will stand up & pray for us as well.
I thank you Clay for standing up for Bro Chappell! Blessings! - anonymous
Feb 26 2011
Very well put, Clay! Throughout David Cloud’s article, all I saw was that there was no Scripture backing! David Cloud did not bring up one Bible verse to back his accusations!! My mind went to Mark 7:9, “And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” All Mr. Cloud’s article tells me is that he does not care about what the Bible says, but only what he thinks! I too am tired of this judgmental spirit. I have seen it tear apart many great churches and all it does is cause us to get side tracked and lose the focus of why we truly are here. You can not prove to me that Lancaster’s music is wrong Biblically! In fact, I believe otherwise! I was apart of the ministry there in CA for over six years and totally disagree. I believe Lancaster Baptist Church has one of the best music programs of any church I know. So instead of worrying about something that God spoke so little of, how about we go make sure we are doing what God clearly commands us! Go reach the world!
I love your response to David Cloud’s article. You got your point across without lashing out at him.
I too find it strange that David Cloud would boast about not going to Pastor Chappell before publishing his article! He totally wrote off Matthew 18:15,16 as irrelevant in a response article that he wrote.
The whole point of INDEPENDENT fundamentalism is that we are INDEPENDENT! Yet, many people can’t understand that! I find that hard to believe. It is non of David Cloud’s business how anyone else runs their church! - Stan Kamps
Feb 26 2011
This is certainly a touchy issue yet to lump bro Cloud in with all the “fundy’s” because he takes a stand on music and has spoken out in regard to LBC is simply unfair and ludicrous. By doing this you are doing the same thing Ruckman has done for years, attacking the person instead of dealing with the principle. David Cloud is a man that always deals with the issue while always showing respect for the individual. He has done a great service to Bible believing churches over the years and has always done so with dignity and respect. I love Pastor Chappell, he and Lancaster Baptist are good people but the music department needs some serious consideration for the glory of God. - K
Feb 26 2011
Great response and very well written. Though I was pondering the paragraph where you seem to imply that Pastor Chappell was critical of your music choices as well and that it has even caused a strain. Perhaps God will use this to for all of us to reflect on our own criticism of others. Thanks again. - Gabriel Spence
Feb 26 2011
The endless fighting that happens over secondary issues like this is sad and frankly I thought that any reply to David Cloud was a wasted endeavor.
However Clay has Biblical precedent backing him up, something that David does not.
First, we would all believe in the autonomy of the local church, yet David’s blogging takes an autonomous church to task over the choices they made before God. He is not an elder/pastor at LBC and therefore should not attempt in any way to dictate how they operate. He fancies himself a modern day Jeremiah yet nowhere in the New Testament did God give internet prophecy as a gift to the church. If you happen to be a cessionist then prophecy is a gift that isn’t around anymore anyway.
Secondly I believe the scripture in Titus 3:10 where it commands us to rebuke a divisive person, once and twice, then have nothing more to do with him. Therefore we stand on scripture to issue this warning. David has freely admitted he did not go to Paul before writing his criticism, then to suggest that his “music expert” could come in and fix things, takes his violation of scripture to a whole new level.
Thirdly, this issue is bigger than Shout to the Lord. If local churches and pastors can be taken to task over a simple song, written about 20 years ago, where does it end? What in our church is off limits to the likes of Way of Life and the ensuing external pressure of IFB opinion.
As a young church leader I love the historic fundamentals of the faith and rejoice in the explicit Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet this unbridled separatism, unscriptural criticism, faux-autonomy and abusive public discourse are completely incompatible with true scriptural unity, scriptural theology and Gospel-centrality. I hope that as a collective movement we will get better at fighting, where our fights as siblings do not reflect the carnage of a battlefield between enemies and our sibling quarrels will be few and far between.
God help us all!!! - Luiz Nunes
Feb 26 2011
Well done! Sad that it was even necessary… - TomKinsfather
Feb 26 2011
Well put. Your words on this topic are refreshing. - Joseph Louthan
Feb 26 2011
Just so that I am clear on this, there is an argument over the worship song, “Shout to the Lord” written by Darlene Zschech back in 1993? - Gabriel Spence
Feb 26 2011
Joseph… sadly that is how this little controversy started. Evidently no one knows they actually just released a new album last month – they have to go after the 18 year old song. LOL - Reuben
Mar 2 2011
Regardless of how Mr. Chappell feels about CCM, the fact of the matter is it’s being played and listened to on a continuous basis in his church and by his members and students.
I’m thankful that there are men who are faithful trumpet blowers in these last days, such as David Cloud. It is men like him that God is honored by, because they stand up for His truth regardless the cost, instead of appeasing man, who is like the grass and will soon wither away. But the Word of God will stand forever! On the other hand men who have no backbone for the truth and have no voice to speak up, are called “dumb dogs” (Isaiah 56:10-11) in the scriptures. The men you mentioned in your article compromised the truth of God’s Word and are misleading thousands, maybe even more like millions if you count the influence over the generations. The Bible CLEARLY commands us to “stand up for the truth in love” and to “mark them…and avoid them” which teach ANYTHING contrary to God’s Word. CCM is anything but God’s Word. It is darkness and the product of Satan, and will destroy every church that adapts it, regardless of motives behind the singer or church. It is also worldliness, and the Lord says “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (I John 2:15). As I always say, God’s work must be done God’s way, which is by God’s Word, for God’s approval and God’s blessing! CCM is NOT God’s way! - Jim Barker
Mar 2 2011
Dear Pastor Reed,
I am writing in response to your attack on David Cloud. For the record, he is my friend. Furthermore, I also know Paul Chappell and consider him a friend as well. I want to avoid personalities and just stick to the facts.
You begin by stating, “I generally believe people like David Cloud and websites like Way of Life should be ignored.” Why ignore a good ministry like Way of Life, which provides many helpful articles on doctrine, music, ecumenicalism, Pentecostalism, Romanism, the emerging church, the Bible version issue, etc.? Obviously your hatred for Bro. Cloud has affected your thinking. You are not being reasonable.
Secondly, you accuse Bro. Cloud of being outside “the mainstream of the Independent Baptist world.” I suppose you feel it is your privilege to decide who is part of the “mainstream” and who is not.
Then you mention two (obviously phony) letters criticizing “Just As I Am” and “What a Friend We Have in Jesus.” I suspected right away they were fake so I did a simple google search and discovered these “letters” were invented by the emerging church heretic Dan Kimball. To compare these beautiful old Gospel songs to the CCM garbage polluting churches today is ridiculous.
Later in your article you accuse Bro. Cloud of being boastful, of publishing a “diatribe,” of being a “hyper-fundamentalist, ultra-separationist,” an “angry blogger” and even a pig! You are so loving and respectful toward older, more experienced preachers. You obviously learned much from your mentor Dr. Ruckman!
Furthermore, you stated, “If God hates sowing discord, and judging another man’s servant, and lying, why should we give any kind of hearing to people who specialize in discord, judgmentalism, and division?” Are you accusing Bro. Cloud of lying? That is a serious accusation.
May God humble you and open your eyes to the truth.
JB - Soli Deo Gloria
Mar 2 2011
@Reuben & Jim
Just curious, but where is CCM condemned in the Scriptures? Because I can’t seem to find God’s comments on music style..?
@Jim
I did not read the word hatred in Clay’s article at all, just wondering where you got that?
If your judgment is based on tone, should we imply that you hate Clay based on the tone of your response?
Also, I wonder if you have even read anything written by Dam Kimball? I have read several of his books, and have never come across anything heretical, I may disagree with him on issues like music and order of service. Everything I have read by him actually affirms Historical Orthodoxy (the Fundamentals).
To be honest, I do not believe this issue is over CCM at all, this is about the Autonomy of the local church, and whether David Cloud is Biblical when he calls out a church over preferential issue. In short, no. Therefore he is in error.
If this were a matter of him pointing out actual heresy (baptismal regeneration, sanctification by works etc) I would have no problem with that. This is not a matter of false teaching, but of personal preference, and David Cloud seeks to bind Lancaster Baptist Church to his conscience in this matter. - Jim Barker
Mar 3 2011
Response to Soli Deo Gloria:
If you cannot find anything wrong with CCM (“Christian rock”) or the “emerging church” then there is not much I can say that will persuade you.
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him” (I John 2:15).
You cannot discern any hatred for Bro. Cloud? Words such as boasting, diatribe, hyper-fundamentalist, ultra-separationist, angry blogger, pig, sowing discord, judging another man’s servant, lying,
blog bullies, internet hit jobs,a self-serving bully, etc. sound gracious and kind to you?
I did not use that kind of language, so please do not accuse me of hatred “based on tone.” You should simply evaluate my response based on the words I used. I do not hate new evangelicals, liberals, charismatics, emerging churchers, compromising independent Baptists, or anybody. Pastor Reed feels he “cannot remain silent” when a friend is criticized, and I feel the same way. Bro. Cloud is not perfect and I may not agree with everything he does (for example, I probably would have spoken to Bro. Chappell first), nevertheless he is bringing up an important issue that cannot be ignored. CCM is a cancer in the churches today.
Maybe some day you will understand.
JB - Soli Deo Gloria
Mar 3 2011
@Jim
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him” (I John 2:15).
I’m sorry, but where is music mentioned in that verse?
I am not seeking to be combative, but that verse has about as much to do with my music choices as it does my brand of toothpaste. - Soli Deo Gloria
Mar 3 2011
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him” (I John 2:15).
I’m sorry, but where is music mentioned in that verse?
I’m not trying to be combative, but that verse has about as much to do with your music style as it does your brand of toothpaste. - JIM BARKER
Mar 4 2011
Soli,
You may not be “combative,” but you sure are mixed up. Rock music is worldly. The older preachers called it “the devil’s music” and they were right. Even the term “rock and roll” originated in the gutter. It was a lewd term for fornication used by blues singers and the early rock and roll pioneers.
You really do not know what you are talking about.
JB - Soli Deo Gloria
Mar 4 2011
@Jim
Just FYI, All music comes from the culture (the world) somewhere/sometime.
You are opening up a whole new can of worms by throwing the term “worldy” around… but I can see that the possibility of you answering the question I posed is slim, so I will not continue to reply.
Blessings, - Clayton Reed
Mar 4 2011
Jim…glad to hear from you. I have no hatred for David Cloud. I just do not believe he is helpful to Christianity and should be ignored. Do you generally feel edified when you read his material? Most every article he writes is a zinger against somebody or something. I never get done and say…”I want to go do something big for God, I want to worship God more, I want to be a better husband or father.” He is a hater and he generally stirs up strife.
Secondly, David Cloud is outside of the mainstream in the independent Baptist movement. For that matter, I might be as well. If you take the majority of the independent Baptist camps or colleges or whoever…he has engaged many of them in negative ways through the years. I do not know of anyone in leadership at major church or institution in our movement who would think that David Cloud is legit. Let me know if you can name a few and I will contact them to confirm.
Did you call Dan Kimball to check his sourcing? I don’t know Dan…but because you asked me to, I did.
With regards to Mr. Cloud being a liar, he is a liar in a sense that he distorts the truth. He did that specifically with the articles that he wrote about me. He took a sensible, nuanced position and took things out of context. He did not provide his readers a link back to his source material. He asserted things that I did not say. But he is more of a truth bender than a straight up liar. So I changed that part for your benefit.
Additionally, he did not call me to talk through with me before he published his article about my views. But, that seems to be is MO at this point.
I do not believe Mr. Cloud is a pig. My point was, when you wrestle with haters…they are better at it than you. You generally get dirty and off mission.
My article was more to the rest of us…that we should stick up for your friends. That people like Mr. Cloud generally should be ignored. Haters eventually die off or march into irrelevance. Their children usually run away from that kind of a ministry. (Unless they are in line to inherit it)
Most of the people who enjoy David Cloud are seasoned pastors in churches hoping for the glory days to come back. Marveling at how good things used to be//when America was good. Meanwhile their churches get older and die around them. (Or younger pastors, trying to fit in with the aforementioned crowd old old pastors in dying churches) I want to be around people and pastors who say…the world is dark, but what an opportunity to be a light. What a great day to be a Gospel preacher. I would rather light a candle—than curse the darkness.
I have no option but to do my best to raise my children to serve the Lord and to lead my church with great hope in the Gospel. If you think we are cutting the message and selling a soft gospel, I suggest you listen to the last three to four sermons in my church.
If you think that CCM is ungodly, I respect your right to believe that. I do not agree, but the Supreme Court recently ruled that we have a right to an opinion and free speech.
I agree with you that I need to be more humble. I fight with pride often and thank you for the reminder.
Blessings… - Jim Barker
Mar 5 2011
Dear Pastor Reed,
Thank you for responding to my email.
You state that Bro. Cloud is not “legit.” Most people I know consider him “legit,” but most of my friends are very conservative. I do not have the time to take a survey of preachers to find out if there are many others who think like you. I know the modern translation crowd and the CCM crowd despise him, but in my opinion they are the ones who are “outside the mainstream” (to use your terminology). They are “new evangelical” whether they realize it or not.
Even if I had the time to do a survey I would not bother because the real question is not whether or not Bro. Cloud is popular; the real question is — is he right? The majority of preachers in Spurgeon’s day thought he was wrong to expose the errors in the Baptist Union. I think he was right, and he has been vindicated.
Regarding your question about being edified by his articles. Yes, I have been edified and informed by his voluminous material on contemporary issues. It is hard for me to understand how you can dismiss his work.
I do not have any problems with his so-called “zingers.” Certainly, there are many “zingers” in the Bible. Paul “zinged” Peter pretty good in Galatians 2:11-14. Nathan “zinged” King David (II Sam. 12:7-12). Elijah “zinged” the prophets of Baal (I Kings 18:27). John the Baptist “zinged” the Pharisees and Sadducees (Matt. 3:7-12). And of course, our Lord did too (Matthew 23). There are many, many other examples in Scripture.
And there are many examples in church history. The Reformers and the Puritans threw “zingers” around like lightning bolts. And so did our great Baptist forebears like Spurgeon.
The independent Baptist movement here in America was built by men with strong convictions. Men who were not afraid to throw “zingers,” and men who were humble enough to admit they deserved it when they themselves were zinged!
You seem to have backed off from calling Bro. Cloud a liar. That’s good. But you still insist on calling him a “hater.” I know he hates sin. And I know he hates the devil. But I think it is unfair to call him a hater. But as you say, we have freedom of speech. (Romans 14:10, 12)
May God direct you and guide you as you seek His will for your life and for your ministry.
Yours in Christ,
JB
Hebrews 12:14 - Clayton Reed
Mar 5 2011
Jim…
Let me rephrase—the people who have influence in the IB movement, do not see David Cloud as legit. (Some do not see me is legit) But I am not asking you to take a survey, just name a prominent leader in our movement who would embrace David Cloud as a legitimate source of news–or a helpful partner in ministry.
With regards to zingers…Every guy you mentioned could zing….but they also built people up, and encouraged people in the faith. Lets look at your list..
1. Paul zinged Peter—because he was messing with the Gospel. I am good for DC or anybody to do that…
2. Nathan zinged David—because he committed adultery and had someone killed. I am good for DC or anybody to do that….
3. John the Baptist zinged Herod—because he was in an adulterous immoral relationship. I am good for DC or anybody to do that…
4. Elijah zinged the Prophets of Baal—who were know as a temple fornication cult and sacrificed children literally to Molech…I am good for DC or anybody to do that…
5. Jesus zinged the Pharisees—because they were heartless haters.
These were all literal issues. The people they were zinging…were people were literally sacrificing children to idols–literally shacking up with temple prostitutes—or perverting the Gospel—or heartless haters.
So far as I can tell, Paul Chappell is not perverting the gospel, given to fornication, having anybody killed, breaking commandments, part of a temple fornication cult, or a heartless hater. The only way you can make that case is if you spiritualize these issues….or apply as you see fit.
So where is David Cloud building people up on his blog? Where is he saying…we can do this by God’s grace? Look back at the Friday news…where is he saying…God is good, the Gospel is the “good news”, here is a local church that I visited that is reaching people. His Blog is primarily a black hole beating up on people.
The IB movement was built…by builders. They were indeed strong. But they as a whole would rather “light candles than curse darkness”—and it showed.
Hang in there..we need good churches up in NY.
CR - Jim Barker
Mar 7 2011
You wrote, “These were all literal issues.”
I guess we are going around in circles here. Like it or not, many Christians consider CCM an abomination. More and more independent Baptists schools and churches are using CCM. Therefore, it is a “literal issue.” - Micah Spence
Mar 7 2011
You are going in circles Jim.
Music style is not addressed in the Bible. Adultery/apostasy/idolatry – these are all issues that are in the Bible that called for public confrontation. Music style is not in the Bible, therefore, public rebuke of another church on this issue is not the place of David Cloud.
We have the right to our opinions, but on this issue of music style, the Bible is silent. Thus, I believe the best course of action for myself and others is to let Lancaster (and other churches) do what they believe is best.
Bottom line: It is not David Cloud’s place to set himself up as a judge based on his opinion. On issues where Scripture is clear, yes, but not on preferences. - Gabriel
Mar 7 2011
Hmm… “many Christians consider CCM an abomination”? Really!?
Interesting that God never calls a certain type of music an abomination. Jim, you are welcome to look at Christian music as an “abomination” because that is your opinion/belief. For myself personally I have great difficulty buying your argument from a logical or Scriptural standpoint. Just because someone holds to an extra-Biblical opinion does not mean they need to push it on anyone else. I could point to the dark ages/crusades as a great example of that.
So when David or anyone says this is my opinion, this is my belief, that I hold for my conscience sake… that is fine. But when you set your opinion as the standard and don’t have a single verse in Scripture directly addressing it or supporting it – any Bible believer should be highly skeptical of that.
I am not asking you to drop your standards, preferences or opinions. I am asking you and David and whoever else to quite pretending like they are in the Bible. - Jim Barker
Mar 7 2011
Micah & Gabriel:
“Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:19).
Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
Not worldly and carnal songs.
To compare preachers who write books and articles warning about the dangers of Christian rock to “the dark ages/crusades” is absurd.
David Cloud has not “set himself up as a judge.” He is a missionary and a writer. Weak, worldly and carnal believers hate him because he takes a strong stand against their besetting sin — rock music.
JB - Micah
Mar 7 2011
Thank you for your thoughts on this issue Jim.
I am a little amazed at your insistence that David Cloud has not set himself up as a judge. He does nothing but judge people. Not content to call out false teachers for false doctrine, he also calls out brothers in Christ when he disagrees with their music style.
“Weak, worldly and carnal believers hate him because he takes a strong stand against their besetting sin — rock music.”
This is ludicrous. You are making blanket judgments about believers who you know nothing about. I would say that making claims like this does nothing to strengthen your case, rather it undermines your claim that he does not judge others.
“Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:19).
Tell me, was this referring to “The Old Rugged Cross” or “What a Friend We Have in Jesus?” And did they have piano accompaniment as well?
Of course not, their culture had different music styles in 62 AD, than we do in 2011. To label one particular musical style as sinful is nonsensical.
Psalm 33:2-3
2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
3 Sing unto him a new song; play skillfully with a loud noise.
Psalm 96:1
O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
Psalm 150
1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
Grace & Peace - Jim Barker
Mar 8 2011
“A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” - Curt
Mar 14 2011
Hi, I have been brought up in a fundamental Baptist home all of my life. I have grown up admiring men like Shelton Smith, John R Rice, Curtis Hutson, and especially Paul Chappell. As a fundamental Baptist I have heard all sides of the music controversy. To be honest, there are many people who do not understand the issue of music that feel like spouting of because of a new song. Maybe I can help in some way:
First: What is CCM? CCM stands for Contemporary Christian Music. Contemporary means new. If we are to truly be technical about being against CCM, then we must be against ALL new Christian music, whether it be from Bob Jones’ music department, the Wilds, or Casting Crowns. Therefore, we cannot make a blanket statement such as “CCM is an abomination”, this is technically wrong and is ignorant to say. That saying, I do understand that when most refer to CCM they are not referring to the literal meaning of that term but what has become the sub-culture of supposed CCM music.
Secondly, Why are we against CCM? If we are to look at this issue objectively, there are 3 things that would cause someone to be against a song: The words, the instruments, the beat. Lets break these all down. When we look at the words to the controversial song “Shout to the Lord” I really see no problem. If you were to say that this song were wishy-washy in lyrics, may I remind you of a song that is sung in nearly every fundamental church “God is So Good”. Allow me to read you these lyrics: “God is so good. God is so good. God is so good. He’s so good to me.” If you have ever heard of a “7-11″ song, this would be one of those. I love “God is So Good” and I think we should sing it, I believe that the word argument is invalid unless the words uplift sin and tear down godly values and morals. Secondly, lets look at the instruments. There is no valid argument that a certain instrument is evil. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people, knives don’t stab, people stab, and guitars don’t play bad music, guitarists do. Interesting fact, my home church supports a missionary to Spain. This missionary attempted to buy a piano for his church. When he did this, the people were against it because the piano, in Spain, was so closely associated to bars and nightclubs. The instrument of choice was the guitar. What am I saying? Instruments are simply subject to preference, that is what it all boils down to. Let’s look at the beat. Here is where the true problem with CCM lies. The lustful, worldly beat. The type of beat that is closely associated to rock music. Now, I have studied Lancaster Baptist Church’s music. They are masters at taking a song with a backbeat and ungodly rythm and change it into a tasteful and uplifting song. It would be difficult to look at Lancaster’s music objectively and say that they do not strive to keep their beats and rythms correct. Another argument that one could use is the argument of a songs association with a particular artist. Lancaster has attempted to be above reproach when it comes to this. This is why they have just started singing a song that was written back in 1993! One would have to do a bit of searching to find the original artists of the song. This is because of the nature of the music industry,music ends up circulating around artists and eventually becomes no ones song. A song would be considered safe when it is sung and one can’t instantly be reminded of a particular artist or group.
Third, Why is this an issue? Well, it shouldn’t be. Honestly, we need to differentiate between convictions and standards. Convictions are what we can solidly nail down from the Bible what is write and wrong. I would die for a conviction. I would die for the deity of Christ, the inspiration of the Bible, the Trinity, salvation by grace through faith, etc. I can find clear cut passages from the Bible that teach me these things. A standard is a barrier set to keep from breaking a conviction. In terms of CCM, it is a standard. Music standards are set so that we will not break certain convictions in our lives. And when it comes to music, we need to have more than a “proof-text” about “songs, hymns, and spiritual songs” to make a supposed conviction. We need to define these words. Another reason why this whole music argument is pointless is because instead of attacking another brother, we need to be standing against Satan. There are lost people dying and going to Hell, it does not matter what Lancaster Baptist, Temple Baptist, or First Baptist in Hammond is doing, it matters what you are doing. When was the last time you won someone to the Lord? Lancaster Baptist Church has seen many people saved in discipled, how about we follow their example. When it’s the end of the day, we would all have to admit that if we were diligent enough in our own Christian lives we would not have time to write articles about other preachers of like faith but we would be out soulwinning. Leave Lancaster alone. Their are people dying and going to Hell. We don’t have time to quibble about standards. Standards are important in our lives but they aren’t worth fighting over. I hope that helps someone. By the way, you will never see Pastor Chappell arguing for himself because he is too busy soulwinning and studying his Bible to do so. Makes you think why we aren’t doing the same. - Rudy
Mar 14 2011
Jim,
This is a legitimate question that I have not heard any IB answer. I have seen demonstrations in other types of churches, but never in an IB church….
Is is possible to be obedient to Psalm 150:4 in our publick worhip today? And, how so?
And, Dr. Garlock taught us that “syncopation” is like salt. If you put too much in, it ruins the taste. If this analogy is true and biblical, how do we determine how much “salt” is appropriate. Some people like their food very salty and others with no salt.
Again, I am asking honest questions because no one has ever yet given me a satisfactory answer and you seem to be confident.
Thank you. - Rudy
Mar 14 2011
Is it… public worship… sorry about those typos - Davy Jones
Mar 15 2011
Pastor Barker, with all due respect, You must not know a lot about music. Also, maybe we should remember that there are problems in your church that are bigger than the preferences you are arguing over right now. Maybe this time should be spent in the Word, praying, and out telling others about Christ, counseling needy church families, etc. This conversation would be a hinderance to the unsaved. Please mind ur business. Lancaster Baptist Church is an independent Baptist church. Any disagreements regarding church music should be directed to the ones who can do something aboutit. I would LOVE to hear ur comments! -DJ
Just for th record, the melody is about 17 yrs old on that song, solid melody and words. The author professes to be a Born-again believer. Please don’t tell me u listen to Bill Gaithers songs, because I say what’s the difference? - Matt
Mar 15 2011
Amen Curt! - Jim Barker
Mar 18 2011
To Curt, I plainly stated (March 3) that by “CCM” I mean “Christian rock,” not all “contemporary” music. “CCM” is a genre, like blues, jazz, country & western, etc. I am referring to ROCK MUSIC. You said, “Leave Lancaster alone.” I have said nothing critical about Lancaster. I like Paul Chappell. He has preached in my church and we are friends. I pray for him every day. It is obvious you did not take the time to read what I have said.
The discussion is about so-called “Christian rock music.” It is also about how whiny, worldly, arrogant young pastors hate David Cloud for his stand against rock music. I have already said (March 3) that I do not agree with the way Bro. Cloud has handled this, but that’s between him and the Lord. The bottom line is he is right to warn Christians about CCM. Christians can disagree over his methods, but his message is right on target: CCM is a menace.
Rudy: “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Romans 14:5). You seem sincere so I am sure the Lord will guide you. “The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way” (Psalm 25:9). “He will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13).
Just one word of advice: Try and stay away from websites like this because they have been contaminated by new-evangelicalism. Most of these people are worldly, rebellious, and unteachable.
“Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein” (Jer. 6:16).
