A SECOND PAGAN INVASION INTO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

August 28, 2008 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

The following is based on material from our new book Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Bond, which is available from Way of Life Literature.
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The first invasion of paganism into the Roman Catholic Church was in the early centuries of its formation, during the half millennium following the death of the apostles. Roman Catholicism has always represented a syncretization of Christianity with paganism. There is no biblical authority for the papacy, Mariolatry, purgatory, the veneration of saints, holy relics, holy water, and such. These doctrines and practices were borrowed from pagan religion and “Christianized.” On a visit to Rome the informed and alert individual sees evidence of this on every hand. (See “In the Footsteps of Bible Translators,” Part IV, http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/in-thefootsteps-bibletrans/index.html.)

Since the Second Vatican Council, the Roman Catholic Church has been experiencing a fresh invasion of paganism. This Council declared:

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ ‘the way, the truth, and the life’ (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

“The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men” (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Oct. 28, 1965).

This statement says that there are things true and holy in pagan religions. In fact, it appears to say that God has already reconciled them to himself through Christ. Catholics are thus encouraged to dialogue with, collaborate with, and to “preserve and promote the good things ... found among these men.”

This opened the door for the current interfaith dialogue that has resulted not in the Catholicization of paganism but in the further paganization of Catholicism.

The call for interfaith dialogue has been repeated forcefully by every pope since Paul VI.

In 1985 Pope John Paul II said:

“[I wish] to do everything possible to cooperate with other believers in preserving all that is good in their religions and culture. ... The church of Jesus Christ in this age experiences a profound need to enter into contact and dialogue with all these religions. ... All Christians must, therefore, be committed to dialogue with the believers of all religions, so that mutual understanding and collaboration may grow, so that moral values may be strengthened, so that God may be praised in all creation” (John Paul II, quoted by Bob Spencer, “The Challenge of Contextualization,” Faith for the Family, May-June 1985, p. 11).

In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI, speaking to representatives of the Foundation for Interreligious and Intercultural Research and Dialogue (FIIRD), said:

“I repeat with insistence, research and interreligious and intercultural dialogue are not an option but a vital necessity for our time. ... The people of today expect from us a message of concord and serenity. ... They have the right to expect from us a strong sign of a renewed understanding and reinforced cooperation” (Zenit, Feb. 1, 2007).

CATHOLIC CONTEMPLATION A BRIDGE TO PAGANISM

One of the segments of the Roman Catholic Church that has responded in a big way to the call for interfaith dialogue is the Catholic monastic orders (Trappist, Benedictine, Franciscan, etc.). Since the 1970s they have developed intimate ties with their counterparts in pagan religions, and they have discovered that contemplative mysticism is an effective bridge for interfaith unity.

Tilden Edwards observed that mysticism is “THE WESTERN BRIDGE TO FAR EASTERN SPIRITUALITY” (Spiritual Friend, 1980, pp. 18, 19).

The MONASTIC INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE (MID) is sponsored by the Benedictine and Cistercian monasteries of North America. Founded in 1977, it is “committed to fostering interreligious and intermonastic dialogue AT THE LEVEL OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE AND EXPERIENCE.” This means that they are using contemplative practices, yoga, Zen, and Sufism to promote interfaith unity and to help create a new world. The MID works in association with the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Consider one of the objectives of the MID:

“The methods of concentration used in other religious traditions can be useful for removing obstacles to a deep contact with God. They can give a better understanding of the oneness of Christ as expressed in the various traditions and CONTRIBUTE TO THE FORMATION OF A NEW WORLD RELIGIOUS CULTURE. They can also be helpful in the development of certain potencies in the individual, for THERE ARE SOME ZEN-HINDU-SUFI-ETC. DIMENSIONS IN EACH HEART” (Mary L. O’Hara, “Report on Monastic Meeting at Petersham,” MID Bulletin 1, October 1977).

In January 2008 the MID web site featured Paulist priest Thomas Ryan’s book Interreligious Prayer: A Christian Guide. It contains “resources from eight religions that might be used in varying kinds of interreligious services.” The religions are Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Baha’i, and Native American. A review of the book at the MID web site says:

“It is as one human family ... that we are called to live in harmony and to bring about justice and peace in our one world; and, as the author points out, FINDING ONE ANOTHER IN GOD IN PRAYER ‘is the shortest way between humans’” (Katherine Howard, “Book Review: Can We Pray Together,” MID Bulletin 80, January 2008).

The Monastic Interreligious Dialogue is associated with the NORTH AMERICAN BOARD FOR EAST-WEST DIALOGUE (NABEWD). At its first meeting in January 1978 at a monastery in Clyde, Missouri, Robert Muller, a New Age leader at the United Nations, was selected as the organization’s advisor (Pascaline Coff, “Bridging Millennia through Dialogue,” MID Bulletin 71, Sept. 2003). Muller believes in the divinity of all men.

Beginning in 1982 the NABEWD has sponsored exchanges between Catholic and Buddhist monks and nuns. The Buddhists visit Catholic monasteries in North America, while the Catholics visit Buddhist monasteries in Asia. This was done with the approval of the Dalai Lama, who was approached in 1981 while he was participating in a Buddhist-Catholic interfaith symposium at the Naropa Buddhist Institute in Boulder, Colorado. When the Catholics asked the Dalai Lama if he and his monks would be willing to participate, he replied, “Yes, but I have no money” (Pascaline Coff, Ibid.). The Catholics volunteered to pay the expenses, and the exchanges began the following year.

Consider ST. JOSEPH’S ABBEY in Spencer, Massachusetts. Thomas Keating was elected abbot in 1961, and the centering prayer movement began there a decade later. Trappist monk William Meninger found a “dusty copy” of The Cloud of Unknowing, which teaches thoughtless meditation, and he and Keating and Basil Pennington began developing a system of contemplation based on that as well as the writings of John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila.

Observing that this type of Catholic contemplation is very similar to that of Buddhist and Hindu mystics, they invited pagan meditation masters, including Zen Buddhist Roshi Sasaki, to teach at some of the retreats.

By 2004, St. Joseph’s had become a full fledged Zen center. This was the fruit of interfaith contemplative dialogue. In April of that year Jesuit Robert Kennedy installed Trappist monk Kevin Hunt as the first American Trappist instructor of Zen (National Catholic Reporter, July 16, 2004).

“Under the ‘protection’ of a Buddha statue and filing in to the cadence of a Japanese drum, the procession reached the Abbey’s Chapter Room. There the installment was made: after the imposition of hands whereby Kennedy made Hunt his successor, the latter received the ‘Robe of Liberation’ -- a black Japanese kimono -- and his teaching staff.

“Fr. Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, General Superior of the Jesuits, wrote a letter praising Hunt’s achievement as ‘one that we can all celebrate in thanksgiving to God.’ According to Kolvenbach, it is through Zen meditation that Catholics can become aware of the loving presence of God. HUNT PREDICTS THAT BUDDHISM WILL CHANGE CATHOLICISM” (http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A082rcTrapistZen.htm).

Consider THE SNOWMASS CONFERENCE at St. Benedict’s Monastery in Snowmass, Colorado. This organization, led by Trappist priest Thomas Keating, sponsored contemplative interfaith conferences for 20 years. They met “to meditate together in silence and to share our personal spiritual journeys.”

At the conclusion of the dialogues they published a book entitled The Common Heart as an expression of their conviction that the things that unite them are greater than the things that divide. Contributors included Keating, Roshi Bernie Glassman (Zen), Swimi Atmarupananda (Hindu), Ibrahim Gamard (Islam), Pema Chodron (Buddhism), Netanel Miles-Yepes (Sufi), and Rabbi Henoch Dov Hoffman (Judaisim). The foreword to the book was written by New Ager Ken Wilber.

Keating and the Snowmass Conference published eight “Guidelines for Interreligious Understanding,” including the following.

* The world religions bear witness to the experience of Ultimate reality to which they give various names: Brahman, Allah, Absolute, God, Great Spirit.

* Ultimate Reality cannot be limited to any name or concept.

* The potential for human wholeness--or in other frames of reference, enlightenment, salvation, transformation, blessedness, nirvana--is present in every human person.

This is blatant universalism, and it is fruit of contemplative spirituality and interfaith dialogue.

ROMAN CATHOLICS BECOMING HINDUS AND BUDDHISTS

In recent decades many Catholic priests have become Hindus and Buddhists, while remaining Catholics.

On one of our trips to Rome we met a priest named Patrick at the Santa Maria Minerva Church. In a video recorded interview Brian Snider asked him, “Do you have to be Roman Catholic to go to heaven?”

To this, Patrick, who is from India, answered: “I can remain a Hindu and go to heaven. I AM ALSO A HINDU. You can be a Hindu living a good life and go to heaven and a Christian living a good life and go to heaven and a Muslim living a good life and go to heaven.”

The very influential Trappist monk THOMAS MERTON was “a strong builder of bridges between East and West” (Twentieth-Century Mystics, p. 39). He was a student of Zen master Daisetsu Suzuki and Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh. In fact, Merton claimed to be both a Buddhist and a Christian. The titles of his books include Zen and the Birds of the Appetite and Mystics and the Zen Masters. He said: “I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity. The future of Zen is in the West. I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can” (David Steindl-Rast, “Recollection of Thomas Merton’s Last Days in the West,” Monastic Studies, 7:10, 1969, http://www.gratefulness.org/readings/dsr_merton_recol2.htm).

JULES MONCHANIN and HENRI LE SAUX, Benedictine priests, founded a Hindu-Christian ashram in India called Shantivanam (Forest of Peace). They took the names of Hindu holy men, with le Saux calling himself Swami Abhishiktananda (bliss of the anointed one). He stayed in Hindu ashrams and learned from Hindu gurus, going barefoot, wearing an orange robe, and practicing vegetarianism. In 1968 le Saux became a hermit in the Himalayas, living there until his death in 1973.

The Shantivanam Ashram was subsequently led by ALAN GRIFFITHS (1906-93). He called himself Swami Dayananda (bliss of compassion). Through his books and lecture tours Griffiths had a large influence in promoting the interfaith philosophy in Roman Catholic monasteries in America, England, Australia, and Germany. He eventually came to believe in the reality of goddess worship.

WAYNE TEASDALE (1945-2004) was a Roman Catholic lay monk. As a student in a Catholic college in Massachusetts, he began visiting St. Joseph’s Abbey near Spencer and came under the direction of Thomas Keating. This led him into an intimate association with pagan religions and the adoption of Hinduism. Teasdale visited Shantivanam Ashram and lived in a nearby Hindu ashram for two years, following in Bede Griffiths’ footsteps. In 1989 he became a “Christian” sanyassa or a Hindu monk. Teasdale was deeply involved in interfaith activities, believing that what the religions hold in common can be the basis for creating a new world, which he called the “Interspiritual Age” -- a “global culture based on common spiritual values.” He believed that mystics of all religions are in touch with the same God. He helped found the Interspiritual Dialogue in Action (ISDnA), one of the many New Age organizations affiliated with the United Nations. (Its NGO sponsor is the National Service Conference of the American Ethical Union.) It is committed “to actively serve in the evolution of human consciousness and global transformation.”

WILLIGIS JAGER, a well-known German Benedictine priest who has published contemplative books in German and English, spent six years studying Zen Buddhism under Yamada Koun Roshi. (Roshi is the title of a Zen master.) In 1981 he was authorized as a Zen teacher and took the name Ko-un Roshi. He moved back to Germany and began teaching Zen at the Munsterschwarzach Abbey, drawing as many as 150 people a day.

Benedictine monk JOHN MAIN, who is a pioneer in the field of contemplative spirituality, studied under a Hindu guru. Main combined Catholic contemplative practices with yoga and in 1975 began founding meditation groups in Catholic monasteries on this principle. These spread outside of the Catholic Church and grew into an ecumenical network called the World Community for Christian Meditation (WCCM).

ANTHONY DE MELLO, an Indian Jesuit priest, readily admitted to borrowing from Buddhist Zen masters and Hindu gurus. He suggested chanting the Hindu word “om” (p. 49) and even instructed his students to communicate with inanimate objects:

“Choose some object that you use frequently: a pen, a cup ... Now gently place the object in front of you or on your lap and speak to it. Begin by asking it questions about itself, its life, its origins, its future. And listen while it unfolds to you the secret of its being and of its destiny. Listen while it explains to you what existence means to it. Your object has some hidden wisdom to reveal to you about yourself. Ask for this and listen to what it has to say. There is something that you can give this object. What is it? What does it want from you?” (p. 55).

Paulist priest THOMAS RYAN took a sabbatical in India in 1991 and was initiated in yoga and Buddhist meditation. Today he is a certified teacher of Kripalu yoga. In his book Prayer of Heart and Body: Meditation and Yoga as Christian Spiritual Practice (1995) and his DVD Yoga Prayer (2004) he combines Catholic contemplative practices with Hindu yoga.

MISCELLANEOUS OTHER EXAMPLES

In 2003 Loyola University, a Jesuit school, invited Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh to instruct its students on the practice of meditation. He spoke to a capacity crowd of 5,000 at the university stadium as well as to the annual freshman convocation. “The Buddhist encouraged his rapt audiences to the daily practice of meditation and breathing exercises as a means to eliminate all passionate emotions and thus achieve peace and compassion. He received standing ovations at both events” (“Practicing Peace,” National Catholic Reporter, September 12, 2003).

In May 2003 a group of nuns held a retreat at the His Lai Buddhist Temple in Hacienda Heights, California. The altar for the Mass was set up in front of a Buddha idol.

Catholic priest Saju George of India performs Hindu dances called Bharatanatyam, which are usually performed in Hindu temples as an offering to idols (National Catholic Reporter, March 29, 2005).

In October 1975, at a ceremony marking the 25th anniversary of the founding of the Missionaries of Charity, Mother Teresa and her nuns prayed before a Buddha (La Contre Reforme Catholique, November 2003, http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A067rcMadreTeresaBudha.htm).

Sister Nirmala, who took over as head of the Missionaries of Charity after Mother Teresa, prays to Hindu gods. The following is from The Deccan Herald, an Indian newspaper:

“Sister Nirmala was today elected to succeed Mother Teresa. … A former Hindu, Sister Nirmala (63) was baptised in 1958. ... A calm and composed Sister Nirmala said ‘it is a big responsibility. Looking at myself I feel afraid whether I will be able to bear the responsibility but looking at god I think I can.’ … Sister Nirmala’s parents, high-caste Hindu Brahmins, did not oppose her joining the Missionaries of Charity. The relatives said that during trips to Kathmandu Sister Nirmala often visited Lord Pashupatinath temple, a sacred Hindu shrine which non-Hindus are not allowed to enter. She would offer prayers from the gate of the temple. ‘She told us that all gods were equal and worshipped them equally,’ said Ms Nina Joshi, Sister Nirmala’s niece” (The Deccan Herald, March 14, 1997, cited from News from the Front Newsletter, Take Heed Ministries, Belfast, N. Ireland, October 1997).

Pope John Paul II received a Hindu tika (tilaka) when he arrived to say Mass in New Delhi, India (L’Osservatore Romano, Feb. 2, 1986).

St. Ambrose Catholic Church in Buffalo, New York, has a stained glass window that celebrates the Second Vatican Council. It depicts pagan deities (Horus the son of Isis, the Hindu god Shiva, and Buddha) together with Moses and Jesus and Mohammed.

In 1997 the Catholic Archbishop of Mumbai, India, lit a lamp in front of the Hindu idol Ganesh at the inauguration of an international seminar on Hindu-Christian cosmology and anthropology (The Indian Express, Bangalore, Oct. 6, 1997).

In May 2004 a Hindu ritual was performed at Fatima. The Hindus placed flowers before the statue of Mary inside the Chapel of the Apparitions, danced and chanted, and a Hindu priest said a prayer. The Hindus placed a shawl covered with verses from the Bhagavad Gita on both the Rector of Fatima and the Bishop of Fatima (Frontpage, Portugal’s Weekend Newspaper in English, May 22, 2004).

CONCLUSION

Preparations are proceeding with great rapidity for the formation of the one-world religion of Revelation 17.

At a time when Catholicism is becoming increasingly pagan, evangelicals are becoming increasingly Catholic!

Since the publication of Evangelicals and Roman Catholics Together in 1994, the pace of ecumenism has increased dramatically. Only a very tiny percentage of evangelicals take a clear stand today against the Roman Catholic Church as a heretical institution. The protest has gone out of Protestantism, and the Baptists are not in much better shape. (See the book Evangelicals and Rome, which is available from Way of Life Literature.)

Through the powerful ecumenical glues of Contemporary Christian Music and Contemplative Mysticism, charismatics and evangelicals are being drawn ever closer to Rome.
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This article is based on material from our new book Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Bond, which is available from Way of Life Literature.

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot always get to your request immediately as each person involved with maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine, which is in its 25th year of publication. Way of Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site: http://wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications, but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html. PAYPAL offerings can be made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org]

PHILIPPINES LITERATURE PROJECT 2008

August 27, 2008 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

I have another conference scheduled for next January in the Philippines and would like to ship at least 200 sets of the Advanced Bible Studies Series (ABSS) for use by preachers there.

This is a serious set of Bible studies, the equivalent of a complete Bible College course. Many have written to us to tell us that these are life-changing. There are 19 volumes averaging 265 pages each. The subjects are Acts, Bible History and Geography, The Bible Version Issue, Defense of the Faith, First Corinthians, The Four Gospels, Genesis, Give Attendance to Doctrine, Hebrews, A History of the Churches from a Baptist Perspective, How to Study the Bible, Job, The New Testament Church, Pastoral Epistles, Proverbs, Psalms, Revelation, Romans, and Understanding Bible Prophecy.

The cost for printing 200 sets is $15,000. That is just the basic cost for paper and operating the printing equipment and binding. That is less than $4 per volume, which is very cheap. Volunteers are donating their labor to keep the cost down.

We plan to ship these to the church in Manila that prints the Filipino edition of O Timothy magazine each month, and they will be in charge of distribution, beginning with the January 2009 conference. This last January 300 preachers attended our Bible conference. We were able to warn about some of the dangers that are facing Bible-believing churches, such as New Evangelicalism and Contemporary Christian Music, and the warnings were very well received.

Exciting things are happening in the Philippines. There are hundreds of independent Baptist churches and until now most of them are very conservative and separated from the world, but we know that this will change if the battle is not fought to maintain the faith in the face of end-times apostasy. One thing that is urgently needed is more sound Bible training for preachers and Christian workers.

If you plan to help, we need to hear from you ASAP, because we need to print and ship the materials, and they can be shipped no later than October.

Funds should be made payable to Bethel Baptist Church and earmarked “PHILIPPINES PROJECT.” Bethel Baptist, our home church, is doing the printing.

Thank you!

Bethel Baptist Church, 4212 Campbell St. N., London, Ont. N6P 1A6, 866-295-4143, 519-652-0056 (fax)

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot always get to your request immediately as each person involved with maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine, which is in its 25th year of publication. Way of Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site: http://wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications, but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html. PAYPAL offerings can be made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org]

CONTEMPLATIVE PRACTICES ARE A BRIDGE TO PAGANISM

August 26, 2008 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

The following is derived from our new book Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Bond. This is available from Way of Life Literature. If it is not yet available through the online catalog, it can be ordered by phone or e-mail with a credit card.
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The Catholic contemplative practices (e.g., centering prayer, lectio divina, the Jesus prayer, Breath prayer, visualization prayer) that are flooding into evangelicalism are an interfaith bridge to eastern religions.

Many are openly promoting the integration of pagan practices such as Zen Buddhism and Hindu yoga.

In the book Spiritual Friend (which is highly recommended by the “evangelical” Richard Foster), Tilden Edwards says:

“This mystical stream is THE WESTERN BRIDGE TO FAR EASTERN SPIRITUALITY” (Spiritual Friend, 1980, pp. 18, 19).

Since Eastern “spirituality” is idol worship and the worship of self and thus is communion with devils, what Edwards is unwittingly saying is that contemplative practices are a bridge to demonic realms.

The Roman Catholic contemplative gurus that the evangelicals are following have, in recent decades, developed intimate relationships with pagan mystics.

Jesuit priest Thomas Clarke admits that the Catholic contemplative movement has “BEEN INFLUENCED BY ZEN BUDDHISM, TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION, OR OTHER CURRENTS OF EASTERN SPIRITUALITY” (Finding Grace at the Center, pp. 79, 80).

Consider just a few of the many examples we could give.

THOMAS MERTON, the most influential Roman Catholic contemplative of this generation, was “a strong builder of bridges between East and West” (Twentieth-Century Mystics, p. 39). The Yoga Journal makes the following observation:

“Merton had encountered Zen Buddhism, Sufism, Taoism and Vedanta many years prior to his Asian journey. MERTON WAS ABLE TO UNCOVER THE STREAM WHERE THE WISDOM OF EAST AND WEST MERGE AND FLOW TOGETHER, BEYOND DOGMA, IN THE DEPTHS OF INNER EXPERIENCE. ... Merton embraced the spiritual philosophies of the East and integrated this wisdom into (his) own life through direct practice” (Yoga Journal, Jan.-Feb. 1999, quoted from Lighthouse Trails web site).

Merton was a student of Zen master Daisetsu Suzuki and Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh. In fact, he claimed to be both a Buddhist and a Christian. The titles of his books include Zen and the Birds of the Appetite and Mystics and the Zen Masters. He said: “I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity. The future of Zen is in the West. I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can” (David Steindl-Rast, “Recollection of Thomas Merton’s Last Days in the West,” Monastic Studies, 7:10, 1969, http://www.gratefulness.org/readings/dsr_merton_recol2.htm).

Merton defined mysticism as an experience with wisdom and God beyond words. In a speech to monks of eastern religions in Calcutta in October 1968 he said: “... the deepest level of communication is not communication, but communion. IT IS WORDLESS. IT IS BEYOND WORDS, AND IT IS BEYOND SPEECH, and it is BEYOND CONCEPT” (The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton, 1975 edition, p. 308).

In 1969 Merton took the trip of his dreams, to visit India, Ceylon, Singapore, and Thailand, to experience the places where his beloved eastern religions were born. He said he was “going home.”

In Sri Lanka he visited a Buddhist shrine by the ocean. Approaching the Buddha idols barefoot he was struck with the “great smiles,” their countenance signifying that they were “questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace ... that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything--without refutation--without establishing some other argument” (The Asian Journal, p. 233).

This alleged wisdom is a complete denial of the Bible, which teaches us that there is truth and there is error, light and darkness, God and Satan, and they are not one. The apostle John said, “And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:19). True wisdom lies in testing all things by God’s infallible Revelation and rejecting that which is false. Proverbs says, “The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going” (Prov. 14:15).

Merton described his visit to the Buddhas as an experience of great illumination, a vision of “inner clearness.” He said, “I don’t know when in my life I have ever had such a sense of beauty and spiritual validity running together in one aesthetic illumination” (The Asian Journal, p. 235). Actually it was a demonic delusion.

Six days later Merton was electrocuted in a cottage in Bangkok by a faulty fan switch. He was fifty-four years old.

Merton has many disciples in the Roman Catholic Church, including David Steindle-Rast, William Johnston, Henri Nouwen, Philip St. Romain, William Shannon, and James Finley.

Benedictine monk JOHN MAIN, who is a pioneer in the field of contemplative spirituality, studied under a Hindu guru. Main combined Catholic contemplative practices with yoga and in 1975 began founding meditation groups in Catholic monasteries on this principle. These spread outside of the Catholic Church and grew into an ecumenical network called the World Community for Christian Meditation (WCCM). He taught the following method:

“Sit still and upright, close your eyes and repeat your prayer-phrase (mantra). Recite your prayer-phrase and gently listen to it as you say it. DO NOT THINK ABOUT ANYTHING. As thoughts come, simply keep returning to your prayer-phrase. In this way, one places everything aside: INSTEAD OF TALKING TO GOD, ONE IS JUST BEING WITH GOD, allowing God’s presence to fill his heart, thus transforming his inner being” (The Teaching of Dom John Main: How to Meditate, Meditation Group of Saint Patrick’s Basilica, Ottawa, Canada).

THOMAS KEATING is heavily involved in interfaith dialogue and promotes the use of contemplative practices as a tool for creating interfaith unity. He says, “It is important for us to appreciate the values that are present in the genuine teachings of the great religions of the world” (Finding Grace at the Center, 2002, p. 76).

Keating is past president of the Monastic Interreligious Dialogue (MID), which is sponsored by the Benedictine and Cistercian monasteries of North America. Founded in 1977, it is “committed to fostering interreligious and intermonastic dialogue AT THE LEVEL OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE AND EXPERIENCE.” This means that they are using contemplative practices and yoga as the glue for interfaith unity to help create world peace. MID works in association with the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Consider one of the objectives of the MID:

“The methods of concentration used in other religious traditions can be useful for removing obstacles to a deep contact with God. THEY CAN GIVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE ONENESS OF CHRIST AS EXPRESSED IN THE VARIOUS TRADITIONS and CONTRIBUTE TO THE FORMATION OF A NEW WORLD RELIGIOUS CULTURE. They can also be helpful in the development of certain potencies in the individual, for THERE ARE SOME ZEN-HINDU-SUFI-ETC. DIMENSIONS IN EACH HEART” (Mary L. O’Hara, “Report on Monastic Meeting at Petersham,” MID Bulletin 1, October 1977).

Keating and Richard Foster are involved in the Living Spiritual Teachers Project, a group that associates together Zen Buddhist monks and nuns, universalists, occultists, and New Agers. Members include the Dalai Lama, who claims to be the reincarnation of an advanced spiritual person; Marianne Williamson, promoter of the occultic A Course in Miracles; Marcus Borg, who believes that Jesus was not virgin born and did not rise from the grave; Catholic nun Joan Chittister, who says we must become “in tune with the cosmic voice of God”; Andrew Harvey, who says that men need to “claim their divine humanity”; Matthew Fox, who believes there are many paths to God; Alan Jones, who calls the doctrine of the cross a vile doctrine; and Desmond Tutu, who says “because everybody is a God-carrier, all are brothers and sisters.”

M. BASIL PENNINGTON, a Roman Catholic Trappist monk and co-author of the influential contemplative book Finding Grace at the Center, calls Hindu swamis “our wise friends from the East” and says, “Many Christians who take their prayer life seriously have been greatly helped by Yoga, Zen, TM, and similar practices...” (25th anniversary edition, p. 23).

In his foreword to THOMAS RYAN’S book Disciplines for Christian Living, Henri Nouwen says: “[T]he author shows A WONDERFUL OPENNESS TO THE GIFTS OF BUDDHISM, HINDUISM, AND MOSLEM RELIGION. He discovers their great wisdom for the spiritual life of the Christian and does not hesitate to bring that wisdom home.”

ANTHONY DE MELLO readily admitted to borrowing from Buddhist Zen masters and Hindu gurus. He even taught that God is everything: “Think of the air as of an immense ocean that surrounds you ... an ocean heavily colored with God’s presence and God’s bring. ... While you draw the air into your lungs you are drawing God in” (Sadhana: A Way to God, p. 36).

De Mello suggested chanting the Hindu word “om” (p. 49) and even instructed his students to communicate with inanimate objects:

“Choose some object that you use frequently: a pen, a cup ... Now gently place the object in front of you or on your lap and speak to it. Begin by asking it questions about itself, its life, its origins, its future. And listen while it unfolds to you the secret of its being and of its destiny. Listen while it explains to you what existence means to it. Your object has some hidden wisdom to reveal to you about yourself. Ask for this and listen to what it has to say. There is something that you can give this object. What is it? What does it want from you?” (p. 55).

Paulist priest THOMAS RYAN took a sabbatical in India in 1991 and was initiated in yoga and Buddhist meditation. Today he is a certified teacher of Kripalu yoga. In his book Prayer of Heart and Body: Meditation and Yoga as Christian Spiritual Practice (1995) and his DVD Yoga Prayer (2004) he combines Catholic contemplative practices with Hindu yoga.

All of these are influential voices in the contemplative movement, and those who dabble in the movement will eventually associate with them and with others like them. This the Bible forbids in the strongest terms.

“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you” (2 Corinthians 6:14-17).

SOME OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CONTEMPLATIVE PRIESTS HAVE PURSUED THEIR INTERFAITH VENTURE SO FAR THAT THEY HAVE BECOME HINDU AND ZEN BUDDHIST MONKS. FOLLOWING ARE A FEW EXAMPLES:

JULES MONCHANIN and HENRI LE SAUX, Benedictine priests, founded a Hindu-Christian ashram in India called Shantivanam (Forest of Peace). They took the names of Hindu holy men, with le Saux calling himself Swami Abhishiktananda (bliss of the anointed one). He stayed in Hindu ashrams and learned from Hindu gurus, going barefoot, wearing an orange robe, and practicing vegetarianism. In 1968 le Saux became a hermit in the Himalayas, living there until his death in 1973.

The Shantivanam Ashram was subsequently led by ALAN GRIFFITHS (1906-93). He called himself Swami Dayananda (bliss of compassion). Through his books and lecture tours Griffiths had a large influence in promoting the interfaith philosophy in Roman Catholic monasteries in America, England, Australia, and Germany. He eventually came to believe in the reality of goddess worship.

WAYNE TEASDALE (1945-2004) was a Roman Catholic lay monk whose writings are influential in the contemplative movement. As a student in a Catholic college in Massachusetts, he began visiting St. Joseph’s Abbey near Spencer and came under the direction of Thomas Keating. This led him into an intimate association with pagan religions and the adoption of Hinduism. Teasdale visited Shantivanam Ashram and lived in a nearby Hindu ashram for two years, following in Bede Griffiths’ footsteps. In 1989 he became a “Christian” sanyassa or a Hindu monk. Teasdale was deeply involved in interfaith activities, believing that what the religions hold in common can be the basis for creating a new world, which he called the “Interspiritual Age” -- a “global culture based on common spiritual values.” He believed that mystics of all religions are in touch with the same God. He helped found the Interspiritual Dialogue in Action (ISDnA), one of the many New Age organizations affiliated with the United Nations. (Its NGO sponsor is the National Service Conference of the American Ethical Union.) It is committed “to actively serve in the evolution of human consciousness and global transformation.”

WILLIGIS JAGER, a well-known German Benedictine priest who has published contemplative books in German and English, spent six years studying Zen Buddhism under Yamada Koun Roshi. (Roshi is the title of a Zen master.) In 1981 he was authorized as a Zen teacher and took the name Ko-un Roshi. He moved back to Germany and began teaching Zen at the Munsterschwarzach Abbey, drawing as many as 150 people a day.

In February 2002 he was ordered by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (currently Pope Benedict XVI) to cease all public activities. He was “faulted for playing down the Christian concept of God as a person and for stressing mystical experience above doctrinal truths” (“Two More Scholars Censured by Rome,” National Catholic Reporter, March 1, 2002).

Thus, Ratzinger tried to stem the tide of eastern mysticism that is flooding into the Catholic monastic communities, but he was extremely inconsistent and ultimately ineffectual.

Jager kept quiet for a little while, but soon he was speaking and writing again. In 2003 Liguori Press published Search for the Meaning of Life: Essays and Reflections on the Mystical Experience, and in 2006 Liguori published Mysticism for Modern Times: Conversations with Willigis Jager

Jager denies the creation and fall of man as taught in the Bible. He denies the unique divinity of Christ, as well as His substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection. He believes that the universe is evolving and that evolving universe is God. He believes that man has reached a major milestone in evolution, that he is entering an era in which his consciousness will be transformed. Jager believes in the divinity of man, that what Christ is every man can become. He believes that all religions point to the same God and promotes interfaith dialogue as the key to unifying mankind.

Jager learned these heretical pagan doctrines from his close association with Zen Buddhism and his mindless mysticism. He says that the aim of Christian prayer is transcendental contemplation in which the practitioner enters a deeper level of consciousness. This requires emptying the mind, which is achieved by focusing on the breathing and repeating a mantra. This “quiets the rational mind,” “empties the mind,” and “frustrates our ordinary discursive thinking” (James Conner, “Contemplative Retreat for Monastics,” Monastic Interreligious Dialogue Bulletin, Oct. 1985).

This is the same practice that is taught in the 14th century Catholic writing The Cloud of Unknowing, which is very influential in modern contemplative circles.

Jager says that as the rational thinking is emptied and transformed, one “seems to lose orientation” and must “go on in blind faith and trust.” He says that there is “nothing to do but surrender” to “THIS PURE BLACKNESS” where “NO IMAGE OR THOUGHT OF GOD REMAINS.”

This is idolatry. To reject the Revelation God has given of Himself and to attempt to find Him beyond this Revelation through blind mysticism is to trade the true and living God for an idol.

THERE IS ALSO AN INTIMATE AND GROWING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC CONTEMPLATIVE MOVEMENT AND THE NEW AGE.

The aforementioned Thomas Keating is past president of the Temple of Understanding, a New Age organization founded in 1960 by Juliet Hollister. The mission of this organization is to “create a more just and peaceful world.” The tools for reaching this objective include interfaith education, dialogue, and experiential knowledge (mystical practices).

Shambhala Publications, a publisher that specializes in Occultic, Jungian, New Age, Buddhist, and Hindu writings, also publishes the writings of Catholic mystics, including The Wisdom of the Desert by Thomas Merton, The Writings of Hildegard of Bingen, and The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence.

Sue Monk Kidd, who believes in the divinity of mankind and considers herself a goddess, was asked to write recommendations to two Catholic contemplative books. She wrote the foreword to the 2006 edition of Henri Nouwen’s With Open Hands and the introduction to the 2007 edition of Thomas Merton’s New Seeds of Contemplation.

New Ager Caroline Myss (pronounced mace) has written a book based on Teresa of Avila’s visions. It is entitled Entering the Castle: Finding the Inner Path to God and Your Soul’s Purpose. Myss says, “For me, the spirit is the vessel of divinity” (“Caroline Myss’ Journey,” Conscious Choice, September 2003).

On April 15, 2008, emerging church leaders Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt joined the Dalai Lama for the New Age Seeds of Compassion InterSpiritual Event in Seattle. It brought together Episcopalians, Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, and others. The event featured a dialogue on “the themes common to all spiritual traditions.” The Dalai Lama said, “I think everyone, ultimately, deep inside [has] some kind of goodness” (“Emergent Church Leaders’ InterSpirituality,” Christian Post, April 17, 2008).

In his book Velvet Jesus, Bell gives a glowing recommendation of the New Age philosopher Ken Wilber. Bell recommends that his readers sit at Wilber’s feet for three months!

“For a mind-blowing introduction to emergence theory and divine creativity, set aside three months and read Ken Wilber’s A Brief History of Everything” (Velvet Elvis, p. 192).

The aforementioned Catholic contemplative monk Wayne Teasdale conducted a Mystic Heart seminar series with Wilber. In the first seminar in this series Teasdale said, “You are God; I am God; they are God; it is God” (“The Mystic Heart: The Supreme Identity,” http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7652038071112490301&q=ken+Wilber).

Roger Oakland remarks:

“Ken Wilber was raised in a conservative Christian church, but at some point he left that faith and is now a major proponent of Buddhist mysticism. His book that Bell recommends, A Brief History of Everything, is published by Shambhala Publications, named after the term, which in Buddhism means the mystical abode of spirit beings. ... Wilber is perhaps best known for what he calls integral theory. On his website, he has a chart called the Integral Life Practice Matrix, which lists several activities one can practice ‘to authentically exercise all aspects or dimensions of your own being-in-the-world’ Here are a few of these spiritual activities that Wilber promotes: yoga, Zen, centering prayer, kabbalah (Jewish mysticism), TM, tantra (Hindu-based sexuality), and kundalini yoga. ... A Brief History of Everything discusses these practices (in a favorable light) as well. For Rob Bell to say that Wilber’s book is ‘mind-blowing’ and readers should spend three months in it leaves no room for doubt regarding Rob Bell’s spiritual sympathies. What is alarming is that so many Christian venues, such as Christian junior high and high schools, are using Velvet Elvis and the Noomas” (Faith Undone, p. 110).

In Up from Eden: A Transpersonal View of Human Evolution (1981, 2004), Ken Wilber calls the Garden of Eden a fable” and the biblical view of history “amusing” (pp. xix, 3). He describes his “perennial philosophy” as follows:

“... it is true that there is some sort of Infinite, some type of Absolute Godhead, but it cannot properly be conceived as a colossal Being, a great Daddy, or a big Creator set apart from its creations, from things and events and human beings themselves. Rather, it is best conceived (metaphorically) as the ground or suchness or condition of all things and events. It is not a Big Thing set apart from finite things, but rather the reality or suchness or ground of all things. ... the perennial philosophy declares that the absolute is One, Whole, and Undivided” (p. 6).

Wilber says that this perennial philosophy “forms the esoteric core of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, AND CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM” (p. 5).

Thus, this New Ager recognizes that Roman Catholic mysticism, which spawned the contemplative movement within Protestantism, has the same esoteric core faith as pagan idolatry!
___________________

This article is derived from our new book Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Bond. This is available from Way of Life Literature. If it is not yet available through the online catalog, it can be ordered by phone or e-mail with a credit card.

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot always get to your request immediately as each person involved with maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine, which is in its 25th year of publication. Way of Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site: http://wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications, but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html. PAYPAL offerings can be made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org]

BETH MOORE ON THE CONTEMPLATIVE BANDWAGON

August 14, 2008 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

Beth Moore, a Southern Baptist who is influential with a broad spectrum of evangelical women, is also on the contemplative bandwagon. She joined Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, and other contemplatives on the Be Still DVD, which was published in April 2008 by Fox Home Entertainment. Shortly after it was released she issued a retraction of sorts, but she soon retracted her retraction. In a statement published on May 26, 2008, Moore’s Living Proof Ministries said: “We believe that once you view the Be Still video you will agree that there is no problem with its expression of Truth” (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/bethmoorestatement.htm).

To the contrary, the very fact that it features Richard Foster and Dallas Willard are serious problems!

Lighthouse Trails issued the following discerning warning:

“In the DVD, there are countless enticements, references and comments that clearly show its affinity with contemplative spirituality. For instance, Richard Foster says that anyone can practice contemplative prayer and become a ‘portable sanctuary’ for God. This panentheistic view of God is very typical for contemplatives. ... The underlying theme of the Be Still DVD is that we cannot truly know God or be intimate with Him without contemplative prayer and the state of silence that it produces. While the DVD is vague and lacking in actual instruction on word or phrase repetition (which lies at the heart of contemplative prayer), it is really quite misleading. What they don’t tell you in the DVD is that this state of stillness or silence is, for the most part, achieved through some method such as mantra-like meditation. THE PURPOSE OF THE DVD, IN ESSENCE, IS NOT TO INSTRUCT YOU IN CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER BUT RATHER TO MAKE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY HUNGRY FOR IT. The DVD even promises that practicing the silence will heal your family problems. ... THIS PROJECT IS AN INFOMERCIAL FOR CONTEMPLATIVE PRACTICE, and because of the huge advertising campaign that Fox Home Entertainment has launched, contemplative prayer could be potentially introduced into millions of homes around the world.

“[On the DVD Moore says], ‘... if we are not still before Him [God], we will never truly know to the depths of the marrow of our bones that He is God. There’s got to be a stillness.’ ... [But is] it not true that as believers we come to Him by grace, boldly to His throne, and we call Him our friend? No stillness, no mantra, no breath prayer, no rituals. Our personal relationship with Him is based on His faithfulness and His love and His offer that we have access to Him through the blood of Jesus Christ, and not on the basis of entering an altered state of consciousness or state of bliss or ecstasy as some call it” (“Beth Moore Gives Thumbs Up to Be Still DVD,” http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/bethmoorethumbsup.htm).

In her book When Godly People Do Ungodly Things (2002), Moore recommends contemplative Roman Catholics Brother Lawrence and Brennan Manning.

Of Manning she says that his contribution to our generation “may be a gift without parallel” (p. 72) and calls Ragamuffin Gospel “one of the most remarkable books” (p. 290). She does not warn her readers that Manning never gives a clear testimony of salvation or a clear gospel in his writings, that he attends Mass regularly, that he believes it is wrong for churches to require that homosexuals repent before they can be members, that he promotes the use of mantras to create a thoughtless state of silent meditation, that he spent six months in isolation in a cave and spends eight days each year in silent retreat under the direction of a Dominican nun, that he promotes the dangerous practice of visualization, that he quotes very approvingly from New Agers such as Beatrice Bruteau (who says, “We have realized ourselves as the Self that says only I AM ... unlimited, absolute I AM”) and Matthew Fox (who says all religions lead to the same God), and that he believes in universal salvation, that everyone including Hitler will go to heaven. (For documentation see “A Biographical Catalog of Contemplative Mystics” in our new book Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Glue.)

If Moore truly wants to disassociate herself from the contemplative movement, that would be a simple matter. Let her issue a statement renouncing Richard Foster and Brennan Manning and their Roman Catholic contemplative friends and unscriptural practices. But don’t hold your breath, dear readers!

In disobedience to 1 Timothy 2:12, Moore teaches a co-ed Sunday School class at First Baptist Church in Houston, Texas. The Scripture says, “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” According to this verse, women in the churches are forbidden to do two things. They are forbidden to teach men and they are forbidden to usurp authority over men.

Moore’s meetings are attended by people from “every denomination,” because she “doesn’t get caught up in divisive doctrinal issues” and “steers clear of topics that could widen existing rifts between different streams in the body of Christ” (Charisma magazine, June 2003). This is the popular but unscriptural “positive-only” ecumenical philosophy that is so helpful to the furthering of end time apostasy.

Romans 16:17 and Jude 3 are commandments that are commonly ignored by popular ecumenical speakers, but they will not be ignored at the judgment seat of Christ.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Rom. 16:17).

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3).

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot always get to your request immediately as each person involved with maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine, which is in its 25th year of publication. Way of Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site: http://wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications, but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html. PAYPAL offerings can be made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org]

“In this sacrament Christ is present in a unique way, whole and entire, God and man, substantially and permanently. This presence of Christ under the species ‘is called real, not in an exclusive sense, as if the other kinds of presence were not real, but par excellence” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery, Chap. 1, E, p. 114).

“In the celebration of Mass there is proclaimed the wonderful mystery of the real presence of Christ our Lord under the eucharistic species. The Second Vatican Council and other magisterial pronouncements of the Church have confirmed this truth in the same sense and the same words as those in which the Council of Trent defined it as an article of faith. ... Christ becomes present through an essential change in the elements” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, General Instruction on the Roman Missal, foreword, 3, p. 154).

The Mass Is a Part of Salvation

“As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch is sacrificed’ (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).

The Mass the Center of Christian life

“The celebration of the Mass ... is the centre of the whole Christian life for the universal Church, the local Church and for each and every one of the faithful. For therein is the culminating action whereby God sanctifies the world in Christ and men worship the Father as they adore him through Christ the Son of God” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, General Instruction on the Roman Missal, chap. 1, 1, p. 159).

Christ Is to Be Worshipped in the Wafer

“The reservation of the sacred species for the sick ... led to the praiseworthy custom of adoring the heavenly food which is preserved in churches. This practice of adoration has a valid and firm foundation, especially since belief in the real presence of the Lord has as its natural consequence the external and public manifestation of that belief” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery, Chap. 3, I A, p. 131).

“The faithful should therefore strive to worship Christ our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. ... Pastors [priests] should exhort them to this, and set them a good example. ... The place in a church or oratory where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in the tabernacle [place where the consecrated wafer is kept and worshiped between Masses] should be truly prominent. It ought to be suitable for private prayer so that the faithful may easily and fruitfully, by private devotion also, continue to honour our Lord in this sacrament” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery, Chap. 3, I B, p. 132).

“Devotion, both private and public, towards the sacrament of the altar even outside Mass ... is highly recommended by the Church, since the eucharistic sacrifice is the source and summit of the whole Christian life” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery, Chap. 3, III, p. 134).

“All the faithful ought to show to this most holy sacrament the worship which is due to the true God, as has always been the custom of the Catholic Church. Nor is it to be adored any the less because it was instituted by Christ to be eaten. For even in the reserved sacrament he is to be adored because he is substantially present there through that conversion of bread and wine which, as the Council of Trent tells us, is most aptly named transubstantiation” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery, Intro., C 6, pp. 109,10).

“It is necessary to instruct the faithful that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour and that the same worship and adoration given to God is owed to him present under the sacramental signs” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on Facilitating Sacramental Eucharistic Communion in Particular Circumstances, Piety and Reverence Towards the Sacrament, p. 221).

The Wafer to Be Carried in Processions

“In processions in which the Blessed Sacrament is solemnly carried through the streets to the singing of hymns, especially on the feast of Corpus Christi, the Christian people give public witness to their faith and devotion towards this sacrament” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery, Chap. 3, III, p. 134).

Masses for the Dead

“Holy Mother Church is extremely concerned for the faithful departed. She has decided to intercede for them to the fullest extent in every Mass and abrogates every special privilege in this matter” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, V, Indulgences not Attached to Things and Places, Norms, 20, p. 87).

“The Church offers the Paschal Sacrifice [the Mass] for the Dead so that ... the dead may be helped by the prayers and the living may be consoled by hope” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, General Instruction on the Roman Missal, VIII, Masses for the Dead, 335, p. 197).

Mass Must be Performed in Strict Accordance with Catholic Tradition

“To safeguard the success of these celebrations and to obtain a greater spiritual efficaciousness ... attention must be given to the form. ... The texts of the Mass should be taken from the missal or from approved supplements. Every change ... is arbitrary and therefore rejected ... The furnishings of the altar (cross, altar cloth, candles, missal, purificator, corporal, hand towel and communion plate), the sacred vessels (chalice, paten, pyx), the vestments (amice, alb, cincture, stole and chasuble) should be, in number, form and quality, as desired by present legislation. ... The ritual gestures and the ceremonies of the celebrant, as well as the attitude of the participants should be those prescribed for the normal eucharistic celebration” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Instruction on Masses for Special Groups, 11a,b, p. 146).

The Wine Can Be Taken Only on Special Occasions

“First, they should be reminded that, according to the Catholic faith, Christ is received whole and entire in a complete sacrament even when people communicate under one kind only [take only the wafer without the juice]. And they are not thereby deprived of any grace necessary for salvation ... With the bishop’s approval and after due instruction the following persons may receive Communion from the chalice ... [there follows 14 groups of persons who are permitted to partake of the juice during special Masses performed at weddings, baptisms, ordinations, and certain retreats]” (Vatican II, The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, General Instruction on the Roman Missal, IV, 241, 242, pp. 181-182)

Catholic Tradition on Equal Par with Scripture

“Sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal ... Thus it comes about that the Church does not draw her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Hence, both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal feelings of devotion and reverence” (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Chap. 2, 9, p. 682).

Salvation Is through the Sacraments and the Church

“Just as Christ was sent by the Father so also he sent the apostles ... that they might preach the gospel to every creature and proclaim that the Son of God by his death and resurrection had freed us from the power of Satan and from death, and brought us into the Kingdom of his Father. But he also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical [ritualistic] life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).

“In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his passion and glorification. Through baptism we are formed in the likeness of Christ: ‘For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body’ (1 Cor. 12:13). In this sacred rite fellowship in Christ’s death and resurrection is symbolized and is brought about” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chap. 1, 7, p. 327).

“For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, ‘the work of our redemption is accomplished,’ and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).

Salvation Distributed by the Pope

“For God’s only-begotten Son ... has won a treasure for the militant Church ... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ’s vicars on earth, so that they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation. They may apply it with mercy for reasonable causes to all who have repented for and have confessed their sins. At times they may remit completely, and at other times only partially, the temporal punishment due to sin in a general as well as in special ways (insofar as they judge it to be fitting in the sight of the Lord). The merits of the Blessed Mother of God and of all the elect ... are known to add further to this treasury’” (ellipsis are in the original) (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, Chap. 4, 7, p. 80).

Salvation through the Catholic Church

“For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fulness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God” (Decree on Ecumenism, chap. 1, 3, p. 415).

“This holy Council first of all turns its attention to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself on scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, II, 14, p. 336).

Salvation by Good Works

“From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God’s law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).

Salvation through Baptism

“By the sacrament of Baptism, whenever it is properly conferred in the way the Lord determined and received with the proper dispositions of soul, man becomes truly incorporated into the crucified and glorified Christ and is reborn to a sharing of the divine life” (Decree on Ecumenism, chap. 3, II, 22, p. 427).

Salvation Is through Indulgences and Ritual

“By means of indulgences those members of the Church who are enduring their purification are united more speedily to the members who are in heaven ... holy Mother Church again recommends the practice of indulgences to the faithful. ... The remission of punishment by distribution from the Church’s treasury is incorporated into it. The Church recommends its faithful not to abandon or neglect the holy traditions of those who have gone before. They should be welcomed in a religious spirit as a precious treasure of the Catholic family and esteemed as such. ... The Church reminds them constantly of the things which should be given preference because they are necessary or at least better and more efficacious helps in the task of winning salvation” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 4, 10,11, p. 82).

Salvation Can Be Achieved through Non-Christian Religions

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day... Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 2, 16, p. 338).

Salvation Grace Is Not Free but Must Be Earned

“All children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 2, 14, p. 337).

The Catholic Church the Only True Church

“This is the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care. ... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 1, 8, p. 329).

“For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fulness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God” (Decree on Ecumenism, chap. 1, 3, p. 415).

The Pope Is the Supreme Head of the Church

“The college or body of bishops has for all that no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head, whose primatial authority, let it be added, over all, whether pastors or faithful, remains in its integrity. For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, namely, and as pastor of the entire Church, has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 3, 22, p. 344).

The Pope Is the Infallible Teacher

“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful—who confirms his brethren in the faith (cf. Lk. 22:32)—he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. For that very reason his definitions are rightly said to be irreformable by their very nature and not by reason of the assent of the Church... as a consequence they are in no way in need of the approval of others, and do not admit of appeal to any other tribunal. For in such a case the Roman Pontiff does not utter a pronouncement as a private person, but rather does he expound and defend the teaching of the Catholic faith as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the Church’s charism of infallibility is present in a singular way” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 3, 25, p. 349).

“This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and sincere assent be given to decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 3, 25, p. 348).

Mary the Sinless Mother of God, Perpetual Virgin, Bodily Assumed into Heaven as Queen over All

“Joined to Christ the head and in communion with all his saints, the faithful must in the first place reverence the memory of the glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ... Because of the gift of sublime grace she far surpasses all creatures, both in heaven and on earth... The Immaculate Virgin preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords (cf. Apoc. 19:16) and conqueror of sin and death” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, I, 52,53; II, 59, pp. 378,381- 382).

Mary Is Co-redemptress with Christ

“Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ... ‘death through Eve, life through Mary.’ This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).

Mary Intercedes for Men from Heaven and Aids in Their Salvation

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

Mary to Be Venerated

“Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son, as the most holy mother of God who was involved in the mysteries of Christ: she is rightly honoured by a special cult in the Church. ... The sacred synod teaches this Catholic doctrine advisedly and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and that the practices and exercises of devotion towards her, recommended by the teaching authority of the Church in the course of centuries be highly esteemed, and that those decrees, which were given in the early days regarding the cult images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, IV, The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church, 66,67, pp. 384-385).

Intercessions of and Prayers to Dead Saints

“The ‘treasury of the Church’ ... is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. ... This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body. ... The union of the living with their brethren who have fallen asleep in Christ is not broken. ... Now that they are welcomed in their own country and at home with the Lord, through him, with him and in him they intercede unremittingly with the Father on our behalf, offering the merit they acquired on earth through Christ Jesus. ... Their brotherly care is the greatest help to our weakness” (The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 2, 5, pp. 76,77).

“In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honoured with great respect the memory of the dead ... she has always venerated them, together with the Blessed Virgin Mary and the holy angels, with a special love, and has asked piously for the help of their intercession. ... When, then, we celebrate the eucharistic sacrifice [the Mass] we are most closely united to the worship of the heavenly Church; when in the fellowship of communion we honour and remember the glorious Mary ever virgin, St. Joseph, the holy apostles and martyrs and all the saints” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, I, 52,53; II, 59, pp. 375,377).

“Holy Mother Church is extremely concerned for the faithful departed. She has decided to intercede for them to the fullest extent in every Mass and abrogates every special privilege in this matter” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, V, Norms, 20, p. 87).

Purgatory Necessary to Purge Sin

“The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 1, 3, p. 75).

Priests Have Special Powers to Bestow Spiritual Blessing

“However, the Lord also appointed certain men as ministers, in order that they might be united in one body in which ‘all the members have not the same function’ (Rom. 12:4). These men were to hold in the community of the faithful the sacred power of Order, that of offering sacrifice and forgiving sins, and were to exercise the priestly office publicly on behalf of men in the name of Christ” (Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, chap. 1, 2, p. 776).

“Priests, while being taken from amongst men and appointed for men in the things that appertain to God that they may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins, live with the rest of men as with brothers” (Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, chap. 1, 3, p. 778).

“The purpose then for which priests are consecrated by God through the ministry of the bishop is that they should be made sharers in a special way in Christ’s priesthood and, by carrying out sacred functions, act as his ministers who through his Spirit continually exercises his priestly function for our benefit in the liturgy. By Baptism priests introduce men into the People of God; by the sacrament of Penance they reconcile sinners with God and the Church; by the Anointing of the sick they relieve those who are ill; and especially by the celebration of Mass they offer Christ’s sacrifice sacramentally” (Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, chap. 2, I, 5, p. 781).

Catholic Priests Share Christ’s Identical Priesthood

“All priests share with the bishops the one identical priesthood and ministry of Christ” (Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, chap. 2, II, 7, p. 786).

Church Has Power to Grant Indulgences; Those Who Say Church Has no Such Power Are Cursed

“Indulgences are ... the taking away of the temporal punishment due to sins when their guilt has already been forgiven. ... in granting an indulgence the Church uses its power as minister of Christ’s Redemption. ... It teaches and commands that the usage of indulgences—a usage most beneficial to Christians and approved by the authority of the Sacred Councils—should be kept in the Church; and it condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them. ... By means of indulgences those members of the Church who are enduring their purification are united more speedily to the members who are in heaven in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, IV, 8, 10, pp. 80-82).

Rituals and Superstitious Practices Encouraged

“The faithful who use with devotion an object of piety (crucifix, cross, Rosary, scapular or medal) after it has been duly blessed by any priest, can gain a partial indulgence. But if this object of piety is blessed by the Pope or any bishop, the faithful who use it with devotion can also gain a plenary indulgence on the feast of the apostles Peter and Paul. ... When one of the faithful is in danger of death and no priest in available to administer the sacraments to him with the apostolic blessing ... holy Mother Church still grants a plenary indulgence to be gained at the moment of death, on condition that they are properly disposed and have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime. The practice of using a crucifix or cross while gaining this plenary indulgence is praiseworthy” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, V, Norms, 17,18, p. 86).

Confession and Penance Aid in Conversion

“The sacrament of Penance restores and strengthens in members of the Church who have sinned the fundamental gift of ... conversion to the kingdom of Christ, which is first received in Baptism. ... Those who approach this sacrament receive from God’s mercy the pardon of their offences and at the same time they are reconciled to the Church which they have wounded by their sins. The Religious should likewise hold in high esteem the frequent use of this sacrament ... desiring closer union with God, should endeavour to receive the sacrament of penance frequently, that is, twice a month ... To ensure legitimate liberty, all women religious and novices may make their confession validly and licitly to any priest approved for hearing confessions in the locality” (Decree on Confession for Religious, pp. 611,612).

Celibacy Imposed

“For these reasons, based on the mystery of Christ and his mission, celibacy, which at first was recommended to priests, was afterwards in the Latin Church imposed by law on all who were to be promoted to holy Orders. This sacred Council approves and confirms this legislation so far as it concerns those destined for the priesthood, and feels confident in the Spirit that the gift of celibacy, so appropriate to the priesthood of the New Testament, is liberally granted by the Father” (Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, chap. 3, II, 16, p. 802).

HAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THEN, CHANGED?

You have read for yourself the solemn proclamations of Rome’s official Vatican II Council. These are proclamations made by the Pope and the college of bishops, and according to Catholic teaching, there is no higher authority than “the Church’s dogma and interpretation of Scripture.” Of course, we realize there are Catholics do not believe these teachings, but where shall we go to find the official teachings of Catholicism? To the Vatican itself, of course. To say that the Vatican doesn’t know Catholic doctrine is like saying Hitler didn’t know Nazism.

Though some dramatic changes were made during and since the Vatican II Council, the Roman Catholic Church remains the same blasphemous, unscriptural institution it always has been. It is not possible to believe the previously quoted Vatican II pronouncements and think otherwise. Yet, the lie that Catholicism is becoming more evangelical, more biblical, and more spiritual continues to be propagated with blind perseverance. It is this lie that is being used to encourage the ecumenical fellowship between Catholics and Protestants. The same lie is a clever tool for persuading Catholics to stay in the Roman Church when they are converted or when they begin doubting Catholic doctrines.

Since it is plain that the Roman Catholic Church continues to uphold doctrines that are blasphemous and contrary to the Word of God, it is therefore inexcusable for Billy Graham and Ted Haggard and Jack Van Impe and Chuck Colson and other evangelicals to affiliate with it or to speak of it in a positive fashion. The Word of God commands us to separate from those who teach error.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Romans 16:17).

“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away” (2 Tim. 3:5).

“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” (2 Cor. 6:14).

“Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (1 Cor. 5:6-8).

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him” (2 Cor. 11:3-4).

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot always get to your request immediately as each person involved with maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine, which is in its 24th year of publication. Way of Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site: http://www.wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications, but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html. PAYPAL offerings can be made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org ]

OUR GREATEST FAILING

August 7, 2008 (Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

The following is by Pastor Buddy Smith of Malanda, Queensland, Australia --

It was in a missions conference almost forty years ago that a dear old missionary planted a seed in my heart that has grown into a very fruitful tree. In fact the older it gets the more fruit it bears. He told all of us young preachers about a question he asked every preacher he met. He asked it of pastors, and missionaries, and evangelists, and mission board directors and college professors, and retired pastors. He asked them all the same question. And he got the same answer every time. If I didn't know him to be a godly and honest man, I would question his results. I think he told me the truth.

The question? It went like this, “In your opinion, what is your greatest failing? What aspect of your life as a Christian is most in need of improvement?”

The answer? Time and time again, his preacher friends would search the archives of their hearts and then a look of great solemnity would come over their faces. And they would confess their universal failure, “My greatest shortcoming is my prayer life. That is where I am most inconsistent.”

I feel I must add my vote to theirs. Read my Bible? Witness to others? Study God's Word? Preach the truth? Live a clean life? All of these poll well. But my prayer life? It's a nice day today, isn't it?

Say, I wonder how our churches would answer if it were possible to ask them this question? If we could obtain an accurate answer to that question, what would it be? Would it be, “We don't pray enough. We don't pray with power. We don't storm the gates of Hell on our knees. We don't rattle the gates of Heaven with our prayers. We don't intercede for our missionaries and bring their burdens to the throne of grace.”

Take the average Wednesday night prayer meeting for an example. We sing too many songs. We read no missionary letters. We preach too long. We listen to a list of Who's Who In the Hospital. And then Pastor calls on one or two men to pray. And we call it a prayer meeting. For shame. We could be sued for false advertising. Call it Sunday Nite Lite, but don't call it a prayer meeting.

I suspect that we are not aware of the weakness of our churches' prayer ministries. The apostle Paul wrote to Timothy this wise counsel, “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (I Tim. 2:1-4).

The apostles knew that prayer is priority! “First of all!” First of all...pray!

We suppose we pray enough, but we do not. We pretend we are rich and increased in our petitions and have no need of change, and know not the poverty of our prayerlessness. What if we were to add up all the manhours of real praying we do in our churches in one week (or should we call it ladyminutes?). Would all the prayers offered in all our meetings add up to an hour a week? Two hours? Three, if we speak evangelistically?

Charles Spurgeon once advised his students not to pray for more than 15 minutes in the prayer before the sermon. 15 minutes! Today it is more like 15 seconds! He once took Moody down to the basement to show him a group of several hundred prayer warriors who met each Sunday to intercede for their pastor WHILE HE PREACHED UPSTAIRS!

And what about the old fashioned all night prayer meetings we used to have? Where did that idea ever come from? Ahem, have you ever read Acts 12:5? “Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.” Prayer was a priority for the churches in the book of Acts.

No church knows everything there is to know about prayer. But every pastor can implement changes in the prayer life of his church. Like what?

Well, we can have men's prayer breakfasts, and when your men get blest with them, change it to Men's Prayer Fasts and leave off the food. That'll sort the men from the boys.

And we can set aside enough time between Sunday School and Church to have a time of prayer.

And we can meet half an hour before church on Sunday night to pray for the service.

And set aside some Wednesday nights to do nothing but pray. And read all the missionary letters and be sure every request gets prayed for.

And stop being afraid of what people will think if Pastor kneels with a brother to pray for his needs in the middle of the congregation before or after a service.

In closing, let me share with you a letter I received the other day about the prayers of a brand new Christian. Here's what his mum relayed to me after talking to him on the phone:

“But the thing he was MOST excited about was their all-night prayer meeting on Friday night. The young adults prayed from 10:00pm - 3:00 am. He said he realized for the first time how important it is to pray as the Spirit directs you. He had several things on his list to pray about but could not see how he could have enough to pray about for 5 hours. He said that he just kept thinking of more and more things to pray for and by 3:00am he realized he needed MORE time to pray for all the things that the Lord had brought to his mind. He commented that it was the Holy Spirit directing him to pray for things that he had not previously thought about, things just kept popping into his mind!”

Ah yes, there is hope for the man who prays. And for the church which prays.

First, pray!

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot always get to your request immediately as each person involved with maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine, which is in its 25th year of publication. Way of Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site: http://wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications, but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html. PAYPAL offerings can be made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org]

“I have been saved for about eight years and the lust issue is huge for me and for all men. ... I need God every day to help me stay away from lust. Short Skirts, tight blouses, slit dresses are all over. You can’t look at billboards, grocery store waiting line magazine racks, Internet advertisements, walking in the park, or any store. You get my point; it’s everywhere. ... I have to pray everyday for God to keep lust out of my way. I wish I was born into a good Bible believing church and was brought up to stay away from lustful sin. To answer your question it would have to be anything short or tight on a woman. I look forward to the cold winters up north when women cover everything up.”

Another man said:

“That our society drenches every inch of media in sexually explicit advertising is a source of much temptation, sadness and concern for this man. Facing that sort of issue with Christian sisters in a church setting is most grievous.”

Most of the men observed that their response to a woman’s immodest dress depends on their spiritual condition and acknowledged that they have a responsibility before God not to lust after women regardless of how they are dressed.

For example, one man said: “Men are sight oriented creatures. The Lord has so equipped men to be sexually stimulated visually. ... Men must govern their own hearts.”

Another man said: “My response to immodesty is often dependent on the environment, situation and my spiritual defense mechanism at a particular moment. If I have had a wonderful prayer time and clothed myself with all the spiritual armor, I am usually just about OK for anything. But more often then I would like it, I am not prepared or I am in a vulnerable situation; then I better run for my dear life (Gen. 39:12).”

Another man said: “While I feel that the Lord has helped me overcome in this area [of not lusting after women], the enemy knows my weakness and still attacks me. In my opinion, the key to overcoming lust are: 1) Obey God’s Word, especially the command to abstain from the very appearance of evil; and 2) don’t put yourself in situations where you will encounter women scantily dressed (i.e. the beach, certain television programs, etc.). Since we are in the world, I know that there is no way to completely avoid the things that tempt us, but if we will stay true to the Word of God and allow Him to help us, we can be ‘more than conquerors through Him who loved us’ (Romans 8:37).”

Many of the men also observed that this is a heart issue. The following statement by a pastor is typical of those made by many others:

“I believe the most important issue in female modesty is the issue of a chaste heart. If the woman desires to please her Saviour and honor her brother in Christ, there is seldom an issue with the clothing she wears. Mandating modest clothing without focusing on creating a chaste heart does little good. If the woman wears ‘modest’ clothing but is sensual in the way she walks or conducts herself, it will invariably cause a man to lust. I don’t need to see skin to cause me to lust. We men have pretty good imaginations.”

As to the individual items of dress, the men made the following points:

First of all, many of the men replied that all of the aforementioned female dress styles hold a real potential for lust. The following two statements were typical:

“I believe that ALL you had listed cause a ‘potential’ for lust.”

“I think that ALL of the listed items can cause lust. The bottom line for me is that anything that is form fitting, exposing, sheer, or clinging to a woman is immodest and can cause men to lust.”

Comments on the specific items of apparel fell along the following lines:

SHORT SKIRTS AND SHORT DRESSES AND SHORTS hold a very serious potential for lust for men. One man said, “The higher up on a woman’s leg, the more lustful/tempting it becomes.”

TIGHT CLOTHING is at least as much of a potential problem for men as skimpy clothing. Most of the men indicated that TIGHT SKIRTS AND TIGHT BLOUSES AND FORM-FITTING JEANS AND ONE-PIECE BATHING SUITS hold a “VERY great potential” for lust. One man said tight skirts are “very inviting and a potential for lust.” Another said of tight clothing, “You don’t even need to see skin; they provide all the curves.” Another said: “I would say the number one problem is any garment that is form fitting, be it jeans, pants, skirt, dress, shirt, whatever. Anything that is tight, no matter how long it is, leaves nothing to the imagination, and that defeats the whole purpose of covering the skin in the first place!” Another said: “One thing I see in my church is tight clothing. Oh, it may very well be covering but it is revealing the shape in a woman. This can be even more tantalizing to a man.” Another wrote: “The point is that it is not the type of clothing that can trip a man up, rather it is the amount and the level of cling to the body.” One man said that since one-piece bathing suits are “skin tight” he does “not think any red blooded normal man could look purely on a woman attired like this.” Some of the men also mentioned LOW-RIDING JEANS as a cause for serious concern, because not only do they totally emphasize the woman’s figure but they are also suggestive of a bare midriff even if covered with a T-shirt. The T-shirt in such a case is invariably tight, of course.

SLIT SKIRTS AND SLIT DRESSES are a problem for many men. One man answered the question of whether slit skirts are a real potential for lust with the reply, “Oh! Yes.” One man said that slit skirts “tempt your imagination.” Another called the slit skirt the “peek-a-boo” skirt, while another said the slit is “designed to catch the eye.” A pastor said, “They are a teasing game, catching the attention of a guy’s eyes with the promise of more; it is an enticement to sin.” One man said: “My belief is that any slit (whether it be a long, medium, or short skirt) provides a flash of skin that is enticing to the eye and the flesh of men. It is the ‘forbidden fruit,’ so to speak, that is covered and when the woman sits or moves just right, that part of the leg is exposed and it is all a man needs to think about what he just saw or what else he could see.” Another man said: “I know that many women cannot begin to understand how that a skirt or dress that is 2 inches off the floor in length, but has a long slit anywhere on it, front, back or side, can cause a man to lust. They think that we are pathetic, and unfortunately I have to agree.” Another man said: “For me personally, slits draw my eyes where they shouldn’t be drawn. If anyone knows anything about advertising, he would know that advertisers use lines to draw people’s eyes where they want (company logo, name, whatever). Slits in skirts do exactly the same thing.” Another observed, “If the slit is there because the dress or skirt is too tight, why not wear a loose skirt?” Some men said that the slits are not a problem if they are not above the knee.

SHEER BLOUSES OR DRESSES are a problem for the vast majority of men. One man said, “I see a lot of Christian women wearing sun dresses in the summer because they are cool. They are also revealing and alluring. Most summer clothes are thin so as to be more comfortable. But you let that woman wearing these clothes stand with a light source behind her (such as the sun) and there is nothing left to the imagination. You can see her form in every detail and it will get men frothing at the mouth, lusting after that woman. Is it the man’s fault for not controlling his flesh and desires even though it is there for him to see? Absolutely! But it is equally the woman’s fault for not having enough godliness about her to dress modestly in the first place.”

Even LOOSER-FITTING FEMALE PANTS, while not as much of a problem as form-fitting jeans, hold a potential problem for many men. One man said, “While it is true that some things on your list will draw your attention quicker and cause you to look longer, even ‘looser-fitting pants’ direct a man’s gaze to the area of the hips.” Another wrote: “A few years ago, I preached a message about standards (including music, dress, and others). I asked for a show of hands as to how many men would admit their eyes were drawn to a woman’s crotch when she wore pants instead of a skirt or dress. More than two dozen hands went up (and who knows how many more were hesitant to make the public confession with their wives right next to them?). The group included many of the finest Christians I know, some of whom are ordained ministers and missionaries.” Many men mentioned the unisex aspect of looser pants on women.

As for V-NECK DRESSES, most men said they are not a problem as long as the V is shallow. A few said the V-neck itself, even if not too low, can be a problem because it acts like an arrow pointing to a place where their eyes should not roam.

As for SLEEVELESS BLOUSES, many of the men mentioned that they can be a problem because they can allow a man to see something he should not see and “the potential for peeking is there.” A pastor commented, “There is too much of an opportunity for parts of a woman’s anatomy to inadvertently show through to the public that are only to be revealed to her husband in private.” One man said: “One word about sleeveless dresses or tops. When the woman has her arm raised or in a certain position, the sleeve hole will open in just a way that you can see inside her shirt and see the woman’s underwear or even more. No woman, much less a Christian woman, should ever wear clothing that reveals her body!”

When it comes to T-SHIRTS on females, the men said they are not a problem unless they are tight or expose the midriff or you can see through them or they have writings/logos/pictures at the breast level. One pastor said: “It depends on the fit, cut, thickness of the material and color. A modest T-shirt would be loose fitting, non-see-through, of a thick enough material to truly be modest. Unfortunately very few T-shirts fit these qualifications.” One man said: “My wife sews attractive vests that she and our daughter wear over T-shirts. It’s a way of using clever camouflage to be modest.” One woman mentioned another problem with T-shirts: “I have a problem with smart-alecky T-shirts. I have a hard time finding T-shirts for my daughter sometimes, not so much from a tightness standpoint, but they have inappropriate sayings on them that encourage a worldly attitude, rebellion against parents, etc.” A man wrote along similar lines in regard to “Christian T-shirts,” warning about “Jesus T-shirts like ‘This Blood’s For You,’ etc., that really degrade the message of Scripture.”

CONSIDER SOME EXCERPTS FROM THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE MEN:

“I do believe most women just do not know how men think. Period. I believe that there is a whole segment, group, class of women, who, if they really understood men, would change their dress code, because they do want to please God. Not all women, by far, but some would. They just need to understand it’s not just a list of do’s and don’ts set forth to force them in to ‘frumpiness,’ but a desire of godly men to gain their cooperation in helping them NOT lust, and to not be stumbling blocks, because they just want to please God.”

“MANY WOMEN, USUALLY YOUNGER, DRESS TO ATTRACT MEN AND DO NOT KNOW HOW DANGEROUS IT TRULY CAN BE FOR THEM. … I am a retired criminal investigator and worked criminal work for 17 1/2 years of my career. I think many homicides and serious physical assaults in addition to the obvious sex crimes are brought about by immodest dress and any born again Christian woman should never dress as such. A sexual predator can be turned on and be as dangerous as a hand grenade with the pin pulled by a women that has the one turn on factor for his mind (which is a variable with such criminals) which could be any of the listed ways of dressing.”

“I am glad you are addressing this issue. This issue along with worldly music has come into fundamental churches like a tidal wave. Thank you for being a watchman!”

“I have to admit some of the dresses that are worn even though the dress hits the floor, and some of the blouses, even though it goes all the way to the neck, are very form fitting. I don’t think that women are out to stumble the men of the church, and nor am I saying that women need to walk around in sacks. There are sometimes when a lady is doing a special music or something that I have to look away that I may not stumble. In summation I think that all of the clothing you have listed that is form fitting and shows the curves of a woman is a real potential for lust.”

“I am a 24-year-old, unmarried man. I am very glad that you are asking us men about this issue, because it has been my experience that women truly do not understand the things that can run through a man’s head when he sees an immodestly-dressed woman. For a God-fearing man, this is a true concern. Fashionable clothing is not, as far as I can tell, designed by God-fearing Christians with any interest in modesty. Sex sells, and sexy clothing sells. … I have talked to women I know about the dress issue and told them that when they wear certain things, no matter how ‘covered up’ they may be, the fit of the clothing still makes a huge difference. Some women have told me that it is a man’s fault for having such a dirty mind or for letting it get to a point where lust becomes a problem, but the fact is men seem specifically prone to these types of thoughts. In North American culture we are inundated with sex. Everywhere we look there is a provocatively dressed (or practically undressed) woman selling something, and I think that women (and men) need to seriously consider the way they dress and how it affects members of the opposite sex. The last place I want to have to worry about lust is in my church. AS CHRISTIANS, IT IS NOT OUR PLACE TO SAY, ‘WELL, I JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY MEN CAN’T LOOK AT ME DRESSED LIKE THIS AND NOT BATTLE WITH LUSTING THOUGHTS.’ INSTEAD, WE NEED TO TAKE IT FOR TRUTH WHEN A PERSON OF THE OPPOSITE SEX INFORMS US THAT OUR DRESS IS CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THEM, AND DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PROTECT OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS FROM STUMBLING.”

“I am 64 years old now and walking with the Lord Jesus through life. Earlier in my life I was a womanizer as a single man for a long time. MY FEELINGS OF WOMEN DRESSING IMMODESTLY ARE STRONG, AS I KNOW THE SADNESS THAT INFIDELITY, LUSTFUL SIN AND ADULTERY BRING ABOUT TO MANY, AND IMMODEST DRESS IS A PRECURSOR TO THE AFOREMENTIONED ACTIVITIES.”

“All men are aroused in one way or the other over revealed flesh. That is exactly why these clothes are made this way. I know some men are more easily aroused than others but normally any man is naturally inclined (by our sinful nature) to take notice of a woman wearing any garment that is revealing flesh. I THINK IT IS A SHAME TO COME TO CHURCH AFTER A WEEK IN THIS EVIL WORLD AND WANT TO ENJOY A SERVICE OF WORSHIP AND PRAISE TO THE LORD AND FELLOWSHIP AMONG SEPARATED PEOPLE AND SEE WOMEN DRESSING LIKE THE WORLD AND WHEN YOU CONFRONT THEM ABOUT THIS YOU ALWAYS GET THE SAME OLD LINE ‘WELL IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT, YOU’VE GOT THE PROBLEM.’ Well, I always wonder why a woman who loves the Lord and wants to please the Lord would want to dress like the world and have men looking at her in a carnal way. When I see a woman in a store in town and she is dressed a certain conservative way, I always think, ‘I bet she is a Christian.’ IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE CHARACTER OF A WOMAN WHEN SHE SHUNS THE STYLES OF THIS WORLD AND WALKS IN SUCH A WAY THAT SHE WANTS TO LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT SHE IS DIFFERENT.”

“One of the sad things I observe in church is the control that the fashion world has over women and the lack of communication between man and wife. I have been saved for 45 years come August and have been in an independent Baptist Church for 40 years. … I see women and teenagers in our church and have to look away or up so as not to be seen looking at how they are dressed. Modesty seems to be an archaic word to many and it grieves me.”

“I am 55 years old and I am BROKENHEARTED over the dress of a great number of females in the churches I visit. Oh, if I could only talk to moms and dads. I have never been married but lived in the world many years. I beg you, preacher, tell them that wearing ANYTHING that draws attention to a particular area, accentuating ANY form or flesh, is a great distraction for me. Please, stop wearing TIGHT clothing, exposing flesh, and wearing articles of clothing with writing on them. How many times have I had to turn my eyes away, or worry, did I look too long, did somebody notice me looking? I wish I could talk to a group of women and just tell them, because I know many don’t really realize what a distraction it is. [Surely] they don’t want the brethren to sin. I can’t believe how some of these young girls dress. Don’t they know the things we cherish, we must protect. I don’t care about peer pressure; clothing is an opportunity to share your faith when people see a difference. Remember that man and (wo)man looks at the outward appearance. We have to be separated and yes a ‘PECULIAR’ people. Men are tempted and aroused by the things they SEE. David was tempted when he SAW Bathsheba; Herod was tempted when he SAW Salome dance; when Samson ‘saw a women in Timnath,’ he wanted her because her looks ‘pleased’ him.”

“I want to mention the present trend of embossing brand names across the seat of women’s trousers/pants/shorts/skirts. No imagination needed to explain that.”

“I travel a bit, and as I’m walking through a crowded airport looking around, I tend more to notice things like short skirts, skirts or dresses with slits that come to or above the knee, low-cut blouses or dresses, sheer blouses, or tight-fitting anything. Clothing that accentuates or draws attention to one part of the body seems more noticeable to me. I believe that clothing absolutely can draw attention to the woman’s body and that once attention is there, the potential, perhaps even likelihood, for lust isn’t far behind.”

“From what I see in the way many woman and teens dress, Christians included, many act like they are ‘for sale’ or are very ignorant of what they are doing to their image. That’s the way I see things on this issue.”

“The more skin I see, the more I have to force myself to look away from that individual. It brings back the past [before I was saved]. It seems like some women flaunt their bodies. What they are saying by their clothes, ‘Don’t look at my face, look at my body!’ … I am all for modesty and I wish all churches had a dress code. Not just in church but also out of church. Skin is a distraction! More skin; more sin.”

“I agree with you about the lack of understanding from most women about the male weakness in the area of lust. The average Christian woman today seems to think, ‘If you’ve got it, flaunt it.’ I actually had one woman who used to be in my church saying that. … God’s final act of creation was His most beautiful. A normal man would agree with this. This sets us apart from the animal kingdom. In animals the male is the most attractive. The female is often rather dowdy. Humans are reversed. … A godly woman can dress attractively and properly by following a few simple thoughts. Do the clothes she is wearing draw a man’s eyes to her face or to her other body parts? Is the clothing she is wearing obviously feminine and modest and not made for men?”

“Thanks so much for addressing this issue. I am a Christian who has been doing street ministry for many years, and full time now for 20 years. I am also a single dad (wife died of cancer almost 9 years ago) of four sons, three under 18. I have concentrated on work in the public housing areas. To say I have seen it all would be an under statement. ONE OF THE SADDEST THINGS AND HARDEST TO FIGHT AGAINST HAS BEEN THE FACT THAT THE ‘STREET’ AND THE CHURCH NOW SEEM TO BE EQUAL IN THEIR APPROACH TO FEMALE SEXUALITY AND ITS EXPRESSION. THERE SEEMS TO BE NO BOTTOM TO THE LEVEL THAT MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH ARE WILLING TO ALLOW IN THE WAY OF WHAT CAN BE WORN TO CHURCH AND CHURCH FUNCTIONS. As a man who is deeply concerned that my sons do not get exposed to this type of thing I find myself upset a lot about what goes on. It is obvious that many of these girls are not only NOT taught to be modest, but their parents have bought them the clothes that they wear to flaunt their sexuality in. Sadly enough, I would have to say that there is no part of the female body that I haven’t seen in church. Short skirts, low cut blouses, halter tops, tiny two-piece bathing suits, and bathing suits with high cut in back seem to prevail in church activities. ... To go to the heart of the issue I would have to say that there appears to be many church men who revel in their daughters’ budding sexuality.”

“To answer your request on women’s dress and modesty, I have to paraphrase a statement made many years ago by a Christian minister of national acclaim. His subject was Christian women and the way they dress that would tempt Christian men as well as worldly men to lust after them. It’s been so many years ago that he preached the message that I can’t quote directly, but in essence what he said was that any Christian man that said he wasn’t affected by seeing a Christian sister in the short skirts, tight skirts etc. (in other words most of all of the items on your list, in fact I would include one or two more) the preacher would pay for that man’s physical exam. Blunt but to the point. … We as Christians are not to do anything to cause our Christian Brother or Sister to stumble, but THIS SUBJECT OF MODESTY (BOTH WOMEN AND MEN) IS NOT OFTEN PREACHED ON. … I remember reading an article in a book about how culture has changed in the USA. In the early 1940’s, a man could be reprimanded on the beach at Atlantic City for not wearing a top to his bathing suit. What we have now is close to nudity, especially for the women. My wife and I will not vacation at a beach so that we don’t subject ourselves to the near nudity of the people there. … One of the biggest mediums for temptation is the nudity that is seen on television (which we got rid of close to 30 years ago because of commercials and programming). Next to that are 99% of the magazine articles and advertising. But yet little if anything is mentioned from the pulpits about the influence of these two mediums.”

“All of those items of female dress cause a real potential for lust. WHY SHOULD A MAN HAVE TO BATTLE WITH LUST DURING A CHURCH SERVICE WHEN IT IS HARD ENOUGH JUST TO WALK IN A WORLD FULL OF SENSUALITY? IF WOMEN ONLY KNEW THE SNARE OF TEMPTATION THAT IS SET BEFORE OUR EYES. Even if it is a fraction of a second and a man turns his head away, the battle can still rage in the mind just from a mere glimpse. I honestly believe that many of them know exactly what they are doing. Why else would they dress like the rebellious world?”

“It seems the last few years as the churches have grown more liberal and the women show more skin, I HAVE TO FIGHT HARDER TO KEEP MY MIND STRAIGHT. I am happily married. I do not and will not stray. … I wish women could just take the Bible for what it says. Yes, the Lord made us men this way. … I think the most beautiful thing God created on this earth is a woman, and Satan knows it to. That is just the way I feel.”

“As a Christian come back in from 20 years in the world, I can see this situation very well. I still tend to ‘rate’ (if you will) women physically by shape and presentation in my mind. This is a battle that must constantly be fought by one who gave in to lust in the past. A WOMAN IN A NICE DRESS WITH LITTLE EXPOSED IS PLEASING TO THE EYE AND STOPS AT THAT.”

“I attend a very conservative independent fundamental Baptist church, where the pastor and his wife lead by example. Unfortunately, I see that oftentimes, some of the women in our church, though they always wear dresses or skirts to church and though they are always below the knee, THEY ARE STILL A BIT TOO CONCERNED WITH ‘FASHION,’ AND SOMETIMES COMPROMISE TRUE MODESTY FOR ‘LOOKING GOOD’ OR BEING FASHIONABLE. It is often an ‘issue’ for me. Many of these ladies are dear sweet Christian women, devoted wives, dedicated servants, and I don’t believe they INTEND to be a distraction. I just don’t think they realize!”

“My wife and I are the nursery directors at our church, and we are constantly having to interact with workers and mothers. Sometimes I find myself having to do a ‘check’ on where my eyes are being drawn, and where my thoughts are headed, and I have to PURPOSE to not think that way, or to just not look at them while I’m talking to them, to distract myself with something else (hmmm, that wall needs a new coat of paint, or that floor needs vacuuming, or we’re out of paper towels). How do I tell them? I’m sure they would be mortified if they realized they were even remotely emitting a ‘sexy’ quality. That’s not to say some women don’t intend to look sexy. … One woman in particular, who is very attractive (even my wife says so), USED to dress very stylish, in expensive, designer clothes that were hip, cool, young, modern, but seemed clueless as to the biblical boundaries she was overstepping. After our pastor preached on the subject of modesty, my wife and I noticed - IMMEDIATELY - that this lady’s wardrobe changed completely. It was like the light went on and she responded with humility and gratitude for the message. Now, she still looks stylish, but is much more conservative, appropriate, and modest in her attire. It’s truly a relief. Now when we see her coming, we’re actually glad to see her because we know she’s not going to make us feel uncomfortable because of her sexy-ish clothes.”

“I would agree that while some women are out and out Jezebels there are others who do not understand how a man is affected by a woman's modesty (or lack thereof). One of my major concerns is that we have strayed from the question of how to standardize modesty. Almost anywhere I go anymore I hear the argument on the length of skirts. ‘It’s below the knee.’ When did the definition of modesty begin with how far below the knee it goes? ... Why is it just length? Form-fitting, slit-skirted, bare legs, and everything else you mentioned in your list are a magnet for a man’s eyes. While this has not been a problem at our church, it is becoming an issue with churches I would never have expected. I get irritated when I have to look in another direction rather than see an immodest woman in church. The point of the irritation is not that I am looking away but the fact that I have to do so in Independent Fundamental circles. ... I guess I get more and more frustrated with dress standards. We preach of the immorality of the world, television that is filled with homosexuality, nudity, and the internet filled with almost any type of perversion you want. OUR SOCIETY HAS DEGENERATED TO ANIMAL-LIKE SEXUALITY WHERE THERE ARE NO RULES AND LITTLE DISCUSSION OF CONSEQUENCES, AND OUR ANSWER SHOULD BE TO SHOW HOW DIFFERENT WE ARE FROM THEM (which is less and less). I do not care how different our ladies are from the world; this is not the standard of comparison. The standard of comparison is how much they are like Christ -- and He is nothing like this world. ‘Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness’ (2 Peter 3:17).

“Almost all of the styles you listed serve to in some way accentuate, reveal, or tantalize the senses of men. Men are very liable to visual temptation. Even Job realized that (Job 31:1). The Psalmist did, too (Psa. 101:3). The ladies need to know that there is a need to have a heart of modesty that will give them the desire to strengthen and honor their brothers in Christ. If that happens, modesty will be a matter of heart and dress, and not simply a legalistic issue.”

“I suspect I have to deal with this most every day of my life. Consider the magazines in the grocery store checkout area. Most Christian women are oblivious to modesty, but the folks that design most of the clothes in most clothing stores where Christian women make purchases are not ignorant of what they are doing. The modestly dressed individual is a rare breed in this part of the country. I do know a few families, very few, who have decided to be different. But they cause me to look in amazement.”

“I am a red blooded, fully functional, American man, who desires to have his thoughts and words be acceptable to God. I have been happily married for 28 years. THE BIBLICAL ISSUE OF MODESTY IS BEST UNDERSTOOD BY AN UNDERSTANDING OF DEFRAUDING. No one should take any action whereby he causes desires to be raised in another that cannot be righteously satisfied. ... That our society drenches every inch of media in sexually explicit advertising is a source of much temptation, sadness and concern for this man. Facing that sort of issue with Christian sisters in a church setting is most grievous. I believe the phrase ‘long, loose and lots of it’ should be the motto of Christian women’s apparel. ... Before knowing her husband, my bride had no idea of how men think, or how easily stimulated they are. I hope my candor may be of some value to Christian sisters who are trying to live holy lives. I try to tell young ladies that I can influence for good, that the kind of fish you catch depends on what you bait your hook with, and where you cast your line. If you can’t catch a man in church with a modest dress on, you don’t want him anyway!”

“You are absolutely right about women not seeing these dangers. THEY CAN DEMAND BIBLE VERSES TO BACK UP THE ASSERTION THAT CERTAIN CLOTHES CAUSE LUST ALL DAY LONG, BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT IF THESE CLOTHES CAUSE MEN TO LUST, THEY ARE PARTICIPATING IN THE PROBLEM whether there are specific Scriptures to exclude every piece of clothing that designers can conceive.”

“In my personal opinion, I think the styles that expose the bosom or the tight form of the bosom present the majority of the problem because it is more accepted to show that area in our society as opposed to the upper thigh or lower buttocks.”

“Personally, I see women (including independent Baptist church-goers and staff) causing potential for lust in all the clothing you listed. The point is that it is not the type of clothing that can trip a man up; rather it is the amount and the level of cling to the body. … when I see women dressing as I described above, I can’t avoid wondering why they are ‘advertising’ their flesh. Is it because they are lacking in Christian character?”

“My wife was taught as a little girl that all attention should be drawn to her face, and that rule has been a great guideline.”

“It’s not always what the attire is but how it is worn and the woman herself. … Excessive use of perfume and make up -- both designed to draw men; they should be used with wisdom. Also, flirtatious natures and wanting to be noticed by the opposite sex should be reigned in.”

“It is the duty of every husband to make sure his wife is properly dressed, not only for Church but all the time. … I have been blessed with a modest wife. Men are weak in the area of sex and need ‘the handbrake’ of a modest woman to keep him on track and his thoughts in line.”

“I am certainly not proud to have to say that all of the above items of clothing on women cause a real potential for lust, but for me it is the case. OF ALL OF MY CLOSE BROTHERS IN THE LORD WHOM I HAVE TALKED WITH ON THIS SUBJECT OVER TIME, ALL ARE IN AGREEMENT THAT THEY STRUGGLE WITH LUST; and it is so few women, at least where I am, that dress modestly or even have a single clue that there is a Biblical instruction for them to do so. I am so thankful for my Pastor’s wife (they are new here and have planted a new Church in my city) and her decision to dress modestly.”
“Maybe I just have a problem with lust, but I know my own heart. There is no godly, good reason that I should ever see from ‘the neck to the knees’ of any woman other than my wife.”

“IT IS AMAZING TO ME THAT HUSBANDS, FATHERS, ETC., WOULD ALLOW THEIR WOMEN OUT IN PUBLIC WEARING SOME OF THE THINGS WOMEN WEAR. Have they no idea the thoughts of other men? Shame on them.”

“There is a term ‘not leaving anything to the imagination.’ Our Father knows, as does any man, that men do not need any encouragement at all, let alone a less than reverent dress style. The fleshly man is full of imagination. … I cannot think of even one of the styles listed that are appropriate for women. Unfortunately, I see them in churches and ‘Christian Schools’ every day.”

“Blessings to you for writing on this subject. There is nothing I detest more than women dressed immodestly anywhere, but most especially in church. This is one more way for Satan to take men’s minds off of the worship of their Heavenly Father! Women should not wear anything which exposes or draws a man’s attention to [those] areas [that are] conducive to male lust. OH HOW I WISH MODEST DRESSING WOULD COME BACK INTO STYLE -- THAT BOTH MEN AND WOMEN WOULD HAVE MORE SELF RESPECT IN GENERAL, AND PARTICULARLY MORE RESPECT OF THE LORD’S HOUSE.”

“Whatever standard the parent lives before and requires of his/her children, the easier it will be for the child to maintain that standard. Usually the child never has higher standards than the parent. If we expect lawyers, ambassadors, etc. to look respectful and above the normal standard, shouldn’t Christians do the same?”

“Another apparel item that may be worth mentioning is knee-high leather boots. These seem to be more and more prevalent among Christian women. In my opinion, these boots scream sensuality and area real potential for generating lust. I may be completely off base on this as my view is certainly tainted from years of pornography, womanizing, immorality, spending a lot of time at bars…etc. (from my teen years until my mid twenties when I was saved). During those days, however, when a woman wore knee high boots, it would certainly attract attention for all of the wrong reasons. Perhaps Christian women are not aware of this? Overall, on the issue of modesty, I COMPLETELY AGREE THAT MANY WOMEN DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW MEN LOOK AT THINGS IN THIS REALM. I SUSPECT FOR MANY MEN, INCLUDING ME, THAT LUST IS A DAILY BATTLE. I DESIRE FOR MY CHURCH FAMILY AND CHRISTIAN FRIENDS TO BE A SAFE HAVEN FROM TEMPTATION.”

“If such things draw the attention of normal, godly, Christian men, by definition they are immodest, no matter what the women think.”

“It is my conviction that all of the female dress items listed are immodest for women. I am 68 years old and have been married to a wonderful, modest lady for 49 years. I am appalled at how so many women dress even in church. My mother is 88 years old and worked in the cotton fields alongside my father back when we did it all by hand. I’ve never seen my mother or either of my grandmothers in pants or shorts and they all worked in the fields. I have never seen any of the women who raised me in any of the items that you mentioned. I thank God for the example they were to me. By the way, they all washed their clothes by hand and I never saw any women’s undergarments hanging out on the clothes line for all that passed by to look at. Proving that their modesty went far deeper than what they put on their bodies. It was in their heart.”

“When my wife and I were first married, she wore pants. I didn’t tell her to stop, although she would have if I told her to. She would have quit wearing pants but she would have resented me for telling her to do so. She had to quit wearing them because she was convicted by the Holy Spirit and God’s Word. She was convicted and she quit wearing pants. In fact, she dresses so modestly that people stare at her because she dresses differently and not because she’s showing something off. I am proud of her stance as a Christian because she dresses this way in obedience to the Word of God and not only in obedience to me.”

“I don’t know how women can ‘not’ know the impact their dress has on men. In fact I believe they do (more than they say or let on). One thing I see in my church is tight clothing. Oh, it may very well be covering but it is revealing the shape in a woman. This can be even more tantalizing to a man. I once was at a conference and the preacher asked a very strong Christian couple (wife modestly dressed) who do you dress for (question to the wife) and she said her husband. The preacher and the congregation gave their amens. I thought about that answer and it was an answer I would have wanted my wife to give until to a few years before. Now she knows I would want her to dress for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. I have the potential to be carnal, and in the flesh and to want to see her in less modest apparel. That would never be the case with our Lord. Thus I told her to dress for Jesus Christ.”

“Our church teaches and preaches separation. Our pastor has even compiled a small booklet on modest dress. Having said all that, we have had and still do have problems. In order to be a choir member or teach Sunday School, etc., we must sign a form saying we agree to the dress standards as well as many other standards of conduct. What I have seen is, yes, they are wearing dresses, but many are far from modest. I have had my wife ask me, ‘Did you see what so and so was wearing?’ I am honest with her and I tell her of course I did! I am a man and when a lady exposes 50% of her breasts I can't help but notice. I told her I don’t ogle but it is a part of a woman that men find attractive, so there I am in God’s house trying to worship God and hear from His Word and I see these things. But she is wearing a dress!! Form fitting clothing is another area that is a problem. A lady can be actually wearing a reasonably nice dress that meets the standard, at least in their mind it does, but the problem is that it is at least a size too small for her! These folks are rarely confronted because they are wearing a dress, you know! I believe we easily forget modesty and become lost in ‘I'm wearing a dress attitude.’ To be honest I have seen more modest pants on many lost ladies than the ‘dresses on our standard-signing church ladies.’ I’m not for pants; I’m just referring to our hypocrisy! It shows either a lack of discernment on their part or a worldly desire to show off their body, maybe both. ... Sorry to vent but this has hit close to home as I have tried to protect teenagers from what they see ‘in church.’ I BELIEVE THERE IS A TREMENDOUS LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ON THE PART OF MOST WOMEN ABOUT WHAT THEY WEAR AND WHY. ... As I said, our church teaches and preaches on these things and they do a good job teaching it. It is a spiritual issue. They know the facts. It is accepting them and living by them that is the problem. I have heard, ‘They just want us to look like old women.’ If that means to dress modestly, then, yes, please try to look at the older women who are trying to teach the younger, as Titus says, through example.”

“As I was not saved until I was an adult, I was like most men; I enjoyed the sight of the female form. Without Christ, I had no reason not to indulge my lusts when I looked at immodestly dressed women. There is no shortage of flesh in our culture; the movies, TV, music videos, internet, etc., all promote it. After I was saved, God began to show me through his word to flee youthful lusts and to be like Job who made a covenant with his eyes not to look upon a maid. You listed several types of clothing and asked which ones were areas of temptation. My answer would be ‘all of them!’ As my wife and I began to grow in the Lord, I made the comment to her that IF THE AVERAGE WOMAN KNEW HOW THE AVERAGE MAN THINKS IT WOULD CAUSE HER TO DRESS A LOT DIFFERENTLY. I don’t think women realize just how much they expose themselves by the style of the clothes they wear (or don’t wear, as the case may be).”

“The stark difference between Biblical modesty and femininity was illustrated one night as another preacher and I, along with our wives and families, were on the street in a large city near our home preaching and passing out gospel tracts during a music festival. Two young women, who were dressed very provocatively, walked by and received the cat-calls and lewd remarks of a couple of young guys. The boys then turned and saw my wife standing there (she is 32), dressed in a modest skirt and top and said, ‘Oh, sorry ma’am!’ Ladies need to understand, that how they are dressed says a lot about who they are, and determines to some extent how they will be treated. Scripture backs this up (Proverbs 7, Genesis 38:15-16).”

“PASTORS NEED TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE AS MORE THAN JUST A ‘WHEN YOU COME TO CHURCH’ THING. I believe we have created a double standard in our independent Baptist churches in that the only time dress is dealt with is when people are taught that they ought to come to church ‘dressed right,’ but not many deal with the fact that believers are to glorify God in all things, everyday, including how we dress. Christian women have a responsibility before the Lord to be obedient to the Bible’s admonitions concerning dress. They also have a responsibility to their brothers in the Lord, not to cast a stumbling block before them in the way that they dress.”

“I am 60 years old and even as a younger, unsaved man, it always seemed strange to see church-going women dressed in that manner (and I understand many felt they needed to do so to attract a man) and now, in many of the more liberal churches, and some so-called fundamental ones, the manner of dress seems to be according to one’s own preference and not based on the Bible’s teaching of decent dress. I’m also still amazed that some church-going men like their wives to dress in that way.”

“I became a born again believer in Jesus Christ when I was 34. Our family left the Methodist church and switched to a large popular Southern Baptist Church. We eventually left the Southern Baptist Church, and one of the biggest reasons is because women dressed so immodestly, I felt I was in a lingerie show. I would have to walk the halls of the church with my head hung to avoid the display of flesh. ... We became quickly disappointed that the church often undermined our own family’s standards. ... Two years ago, our family finally switched to a Fundamental Independent Bible believing Baptist church and we really love serving the Lord and being with believers of like precious faith and with standards. ... I believe if godly women understood the effect they can have on a godly man they would dress differently. I have daughters and I constantly have to instruct them on what men think of immodestly dressed women and correct their dress.”

“Thank you for addressing this serious problem. I agree that most Christian women do not seem to understand how that the way they dress affects men. Unfortunately, some do understand and they enjoy dressing in a way that attracts the attention of men. ... We are living in the last part of the last days. Demon influence and demon possession is rampant. Evil triumphs when the church does nothing. ONE SIGN OF DEMON ACTIVITY IS NUDITY AND LEWD DRESS. MEN RESPOND BY SIGHT. Sight arouses their sexual drive. Anything that exposes highlights or outlines the torso and thigh is lustful dress. The Word of God is clear that a man who lusts after a woman is guilty of adultery along with her. I told my people last Sunday that if the women dress inappropriately and go to town, causing four men to look and lust, they will be held accountable for participating in committing adultery.”

“As a man, a Christian, and a pastor, I believe modesty is perhaps the most important issue in dress, whether among the church or otherwise, because, I’M TELLING YOU, MEN NOTICE, MEN LOOK, AND MEN LUST, EVEN THE GOOD ONES. I know many women say, ‘Well, that’s their problem, not mine!’ But while we men will answer for our lust, the ladies will answer for doing something that causes another to fall into sin. Ladies, understand, your dress DOES effect us, and as such, you should prayerful consider what you wear. Men are created in such a way as to be stimulated by sight--so when we see a lady, pretty, or sometimes not, we are stimulated by the sight of their flesh. It’s just the way we are.”

“Ladies, please, dress with modesty. DRESS AS YOU WOULD IF JESUS WERE SITTING NEXT TO YOU. And He is, by the way, both because the Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and because He has promised to be there when two or three are gathered together in His name. Jesus is sitting next to you!”

“I am a member of a fundamental church and am sad to say that many of these worldly ways are finding their way into our church. MAY GOD SEND HIS HOLY SPIRIT TO MOVE IN OUR MIDST SO THAT A REVIVAL WOULD BREAK FORTH.”

[This article is from the author’s book, “Dressing from the Lord,” which is available from Way of Life Literature. It can be ordered via the online catalog or by phone or e-mail (866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org).]

[Distributed by Way of Life Literature's Fundamental Baptist Information Service, an e-mail listing for Fundamental Baptists and other fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. OUR GOAL IN THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF OUR MINISTRY IS NOT DEVOTIONAL BUT IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION TO ASSIST PREACHERS IN THE PROTECTION OF THE CHURCHES IN THIS APOSTATE HOUR. This material is sent only to those who personally subscribe to the list. If somehow you have subscribed unintentionally, following are the instructions for removal. The Fundamental Baptist Information Service mailing list is automated. To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE or to CHANGE ADDRESSES or to RE-SUBSCRIBE UNDER A NEW ADDRESS, go to http://www.wayoflife.org/fbis/subscribe.html. If you have any trouble with this, please let us know. And please be patient with us. We do not ignore any unsubscribe request, but we cannot always get to your request immediately as each person involved with maintaining the Way of Life web site does this only on a very part time basis and is busy with many other major activities, such as pastoring and missionary work. We take up a quarterly offering to fund this ministry, and those who use the materials are expected to participate (Galatians 6:6) if they can. Some of the articles are from O Timothy magazine, which is in its 25th year of publication. Way of Life publishes many helpful books. The catalog is located at the web site: http://wayoflife.org/catalog/catalog.htm Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. We do not solicit funds from those who do not agree with our preaching and who are not helped by these publications, but from those who are. OFFERINGS can be made at http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/offering.html. PAYPAL offerings can be made to https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=dcloud%40wayoflife.org]

FOLLOW-UP ABOUT THE GIRL AND THE PANTS AND THE CHURCH DISCIPLINE

August 15, 2008 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the enf of the article) -

On August 14, I sent out a notice to the pastors on the FBIS mailing list asking the following question:

I have a problem that you can help me with. All I ask is that you write and let me know what you would say to the following situation. It might even sound humorous to you, but I can assure you that it is a serious matter. There is a teenage girl in a church. The church teaches that pants are not the most appropriate and modest attire for women. The girl is from a very poor family (six people living in one room), but she was the first member of her family to come to Christ about three years ago. She has been growing in the Lord and is faithful to church and prayer meetings. Recently she got a scholarship to a school that requires the female students to wear loose pants. Though someone from the church approached the school leaders and asked them to make an exception for her, they refused. Since the girl has decided to attend the school anyway, the church won’t allow her to teach Sunday School because she will no longer meet the standards for workers. But there is a prominent person in the church who is not content with this. He thinks she should be disciplined after the fashion of 1 Corinthians 5 and she should not be allowed to take the Lord’s Supper. What do you think?
______________________

I have received a deluge of responses to this, and I am thankful for each one who took the time to write. Most of the responses expressed a great deal of Christian wisdom and compassion, and it has been a blessing to read them.

I want to make the following comments in order to clarify the situation a bit. In hindsight I realize that I didn’t give enough information.

First, the church in question is a missionary church in South Asia. The school the girl is planning to attend is a high school operated by Hindus. There are no Christian ones.

Second, though the girl is from a poor family, the issue in question has nothing to do with an inability to afford a certain kind of clothing. The church would be more than happy to purchase any clothes the church members might need, but that is not the issue.

Third, the church has no intention of disciplining the girl. By God’s grace, they are going to continue to love her and teach her and encourage her and be patient with her and hopefully see her grow up to be a strong Christian woman who will be a bright light in that dark place.

Fourth, the “prominent man” is not a church leader and is not representative of the rest of the church, though he has been trying to promote his opinion to some of the members. His thinking is legalistic and grossly lacking in the love of Christ, and we wanted to show him that the pastors with whom we are in fellowship will not agree with him on this issue. Generally speaking, my readers doubtless represent the stricter side of fundamentalism; yet we do not lack in compassion and godly wisdom. In spite of what our detractors presume, we are not mean-spirited Pharisees. The e-mail responses demonstrated this.

Fifth, a few of those who replied used this as a soapbox to take a swipe at standards in general and at dress standards in particular and at the issue of pants on women even more particularly, but that is to be expected. This is a very touchy issue, and some people persist in making their opinions known even when no one cares to hear!

FOLLOWING ARE SOME OF THE COMMENTS WE RECEIVED FROM READERS

“The prominent person in the church has no Scripture for such an action. Her difficulty is already extremely hard on her and he would make it even worse. This would be cruel treatment and something the Lord would not do. I recommend someone discipline the prominent member.” [Note from Bro. Cloud: I put this one first, because I like it the best. Amen.]

“I would allow the girl to teach as long as she only wore the pants required at school and dresses or skirts the rest of the time, and I would discipline the Pharisee that wants her disciplined for being a cruel, callused, graceless boor.”

“The grace of God does not break fellowship and throw a teenage girl out of a church for wearing loose fitting pants to a school that she can’t afford to go to but chose to because she got a scholarship. I believe in standards and I believe in convictions BUT I don’t believe in extremes that do this. Maybe this church member should go read 1 Corinthians 13 and examine how much he cares for others. Where would any of us be if it weren’t for God’s grace in our lives AFTER we accept Christ?”

“I would say, from what you told me, that the GIRL wants to do right and the CHURCH wants to do right. ... I would certainly not discipline her further. It sounds like she has a heart to do right and needs to be encouraged, not further discouraged.”

“The standards for workers and decision to remove a person from a place of ministry sounds right and just. But 1 Corinthians 5 is dealing with fornication. I’d have to educate that ‘prominent person.’ If that prominent person does not receive instruction but pushes the issue (Prov. 30:33) then he would be sowing discord and find grounds to have himself separated.”

“From what I understand from the information you listed, I think church discipline is a bit extreme in this matter. If the church standards are such that a teacher cannot wear pants at any time, then that is their standard. I have standards in our church for staff and workers, also, and I think it is prudent to do so. If she violates that standard then I guess they can go ahead and not let her teach. As far as not taking the Lord's table, I think that is too far. In this instance, it doesn’t sound as though this young lady is rebellious or stubborn. The church contacted the school, and they have their dress standards also. I also assume this may be the only opportunity this young lady has at the present time to go to school because of her family and financial situation. It seems clear that most, if not all of this, is not under her control. The only choices she seems to have is to follow the school’s standards of dress, or not to attend the school. Is that the choice the young lady must face? That seems to be the root of the matter to me. A time in serious prayer by the pastor seeking the Lord’s will is the best solution. Pastors have to make tough decisions, but once bathed in prayer and led by the Lord those decisions are better made. It is easy to sit on the sideline and coach this one; it isn’t in my church. But in summary, I believe church discipline is not proper in this case.”

“1 Corinthians 11: 24-34 teaches that a person is to examine themselves before partaking of the Lord’s Supper. This is a self examination. ... As a pastor of a church all we can do at this point is teach the proper way to observe the Lord’s Supper and that individual has to examine his/her self to see if they are partaking of it worthily. This has nothing to do with dress, but our reflection and remembrance of the suffering of Christ. With the information provided below, I see nothing that should keep this lady from teaching her Sunday school class as long as she is modestly dressed, spiritually minded, faithful, and prepared to teach. Neither do I see anything here that should warrant discipline from the church. I would encourage the prominent individual to study the mentioned scriptures and pray for understanding.”

“Obviously the Word of God is the final authority. Let’s talk consistency and favoritism. EVERY person should then be held to the same form of discipline. This is extremely hard to do. Since SIN is SIN and in God’s eyes one sin is not greater than another, this form of discipline could be administered evenly across the board. What if the tithing records were made public? Failing to tithe is sin. Could it be reason to forbid participation in the Lord’s Supper?”

“Nowhere in scripture we will find that our Lord will have us sin in order to conform to the world’s ‘rules.’ It is not our Lord’s will for us to attend ANY school that demands of us to follow unscriptural beliefs. Almighty God has a perfect plan for this young lady and for each and every one of us.”

“Seems to me that ‘standards for workers’ is a different thing than ‘standards for attendees.’ I would advise the girl to graciously submit to no longer being qualified to teach in the church AND to go ahead and attend the school. As she continues to grow in the Lord, she will develop her own convictions based upon her understanding of Scripture ... Concerning the prominent person in the church, is his name Diotrephes? Perhaps he should be disciplined because of his insensitivity to the growth rate of babes in the Lord. If the girl wants to be an attendee rather than a worker, that is her business. The prominent person in the church is the real problem--not the spiritually growing girl who appears to be walking in the light. If we offend or anger anyone, let’s offend and anger the prominent person--not the babe in Christ.”

“I can see why the church would not allow her to teach in Sunday School, since not wearing pants at all is the churches policy or standard. I do not, however, see the gross immorality as 1 Corinthians deals with. She should be disciplined no further by the church. It seems to me that this ‘prominent person’ in the church is taking it a bit too far, especially for a young person who needs to be nurtured. Also, I would consider her unsaved family. Great care should be observed. To go to such an extreme as to turn her out of the church or withdraw fellowship could have a drastic effect on them. Though I agree with the standard of the church or its pastor, wearing loose pants is not on the list of 1 Corinthians 5:11. As to not allowing her to partake of the Lord’s Supper, as I understand the Bible the only way anyone can eat or drink ‘worthily’ is to be saved by the grace of God. Washed in His precious blood. Who is worthy to partake of any of God’s blessings outside of salvation? None of us should be able to partake of the Lord's Supper, if sinless perfection is a prerequisite.”

“This situation is unfortunate, but there are a few Scriptural considerations here. First, and I think the over-riding concern for INDIVIDUAL members is that whatever course of action is followed the members’ response must be based on love for this girl and a desire to see her become more like Christ. We know that Christ said the mark of true disciples is their love for one another. Also, Christ give the 2 greatest commandments, both of which center on love. I believe it is important to maintain standards of righteousness, but failure to do so in a spirit of love fails the test of Scripture. Perhaps some pastoral instruction on the proper attitude towards restoring an errant brother might be in order for the ‘influential’ member (Gal. 6:1). Second, I agree with you on the issue of biblical modesty. Your description of the pants in question seems to indicate that they are ‘relatively’ modest for pants; though I will not dispute they are still pants and not the best choice. Unfortunately, the school will not bend and the decision from this child’s perspective is almost impossible. ... Our partners on the field have taken an instructive approach, dealing with the subject of modesty regularly and allowing time for the Holy Spirit to convict on these issues. They have seen a great deal of success, but as new believers enter the fellowship, they require the same instruction, so he has a number of women in his church plants who wear pants at any given time, each of whom require the same instruction. As for this particular situation, I agree that if she fails to follow the church’s standards for dress she may not hold a teaching position in the church, but I find the idea of church discipline to be overkill. It may be, in time, she will grow spiritually to the point that the decision becomes easier, but until that time, a bit of Christian charity, while not endorsing her decision, will go a long way to helping her grow spiritually.”

“As to the ‘prominent person’ in the church who is calling for church discipline, such an action could possibly destroy this girl’s faith, not only in the church, but in Christians as a whole. Aside from that, what kind of a testimony would it send to this girl’s family, whom, I’m sure, the church is endeavoring to win to the Lord? I believe that a bit of grace might be extended here. Thank God for His amazing grace which He gives to us each and every day! I Corinthians 13.”

“If the issue as you described it happened for us, the person would be removed from leadership because of failing to meet the Leadership Standards. However, putting the person under church discipline seems to be harsh. I would sit down with the person and explain that we cannot use them any more in a leadership capacity. I would also make sure to explain scripturally why we are taking that position. I would also seek to find out why she is choosing to attend a school that will take her out of a leadership position in the Lord’s house. ... At the moment, I would think she has done nothing worthy of church discipline. Although there seems to be a desire to go in a wrong direction spiritually, she needs to rethink the schooling situation and encouraged to do so. What does God really want for your life? To honor and glorify Him, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. Sometimes schooling in a wrong place leads to many other problems. I would probably discuss church discipline with the prominent member scripturally and seek to help him understand why this is not a church discipline issue. I would let him know we will keep an eye on it and we will monitor the situation and take appropriate action as needed.”

“If the young girl came home and immediately changed into the ‘proper’ attire then her heart is right, If the school has asked for this dress code for some form of ‘moral’ issues and or it is freezing cold in the middle of winter and snow is 3 ft deep then the ‘church’ and this particular member is unfair and unyielding to her plight and no Christ like love, understanding is being shown to her.”

“I would not use church discipline. We allow people of all kinds of backgrounds and levels of their Christian growth to attend. Lost folks, baby believers, backslidden believers, struggling believers. If she insists on leadership then a line must be drawn. But I would not discipline because she or her family have not grown enough spiritually to match others convictions. While I do not know her or all details you must decide if it is real rebellion or a growth issue.”

“Church discipline is for very serious transgressions. While we do hold modesty up as very important in our churches and concerning our members and leadership, the girl was already disciplined by losing her teaching position. I hardly think the Lord would have you give her over to the devil for the destruction of the flesh over such an issue as this. I see no sexual explicit thing this girl has done to warrant such behaviour from this prominent man in the ministry. Seems to me that this man though wanting to make sure there is purity in the church is somewhat stretching this out to a big ordeal. I am not sure that we have authority to forbid her in such cases from the Lord’s Table. She does have individual soul liberty to make decisions that she feels are best for her life and if her testimony is strong than he should give her time to grow and not cut her off at the knees. Besides the Pastor is the one to make such choices in the ministry; he is the overseer and that man is out of bounds, I believe. She will not put a mark of embarrassment on the ministry if she does not represent them as a teacher. We have to be careful not to get Papal in such matters. This by no means excuses the fact that we believe she is wrong, but it is her choice to make. We are not puritans and should not attempt to ‘burn her at the stake.’”

“Said ‘prominent’ person is not exhibiting anything remotely close to the love and wisdom of Christ, but rather has the spirit of a Pharisee. The term Pharisee gets overused, but it is applicable here. I hate religious spirits. I hate ‘religion,’ i.e. that of the ‘prominent’ person, when said religion is without the Spirit.”

“I do not agree with the wearing of pants by women unless they are loose enough to not emphasize the body parts that men are attracted to. At the same time, I have never found the issue of pants wearing to be an issue to which the Scriptures speak in regard to her ability to teach Sunday School. It certainly does not fall into the category of a gross immorality such as 1 Corinthians 5 requires to be disciplined. ... [Churches] can hold to convictions about women not wearing pants (and I think they would be right), but they must show mercy, too.”

“The real thing that matters, on all sides, is to have the right spiritual attitude and walk in true fellowship with God. To put a godly girl out of fellowship because she (has to) wear(s) pants, is absurd. This is legalism to the max. How can one equate the evil of 1 Corinthians 5 with this girl’s situation!”

“As to the matter of the prominent person in the church thinking that the girl should be banned from partaking of the Lord’s Supper, that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that the church is to ‘police’ the Lord’s Supper. The Bible teaches that the preacher is to clearly preach the warnings about partaking of the Lord’s Supper unworthily, and then let God will do the ‘policing’ (1 Corinthians 11:17-34). ... Paul describes a very carnal scene in Corinth in regard to partaking of the Lord’s Supper (divisions, heresies, selfishness, drunkenness, etc.), but not once does he name a name in regard to the problem, and tell them to be banned from the Lord’s Supper. Church leaders are never told to ‘police’ the Lord’s Supper -- that is clearly left to the Lord to do. The preacher is to warn the whole congregation as to the seriousness of the matter, and then it is to be left between the person and God. This is where the fear of the Lord must be preached, and then leave the matter with God. ... The church in question has a case in regard to removing the young lady from teaching a Sunday School class, but the church has no business saying that the girl cannot partake of the Lord’s Supper.”

“As far as the individual that thinks she should be disciplined after the fashion of 1 Corinthians 5 and she should not be allowed to take the Lord’s Supper, I DO NOT agree with that.”

“My suggestion is that the man who wants to impose church discipline pay for her schooling at another institution which would NOT require the wearing of pants.”

“My question is on what scripture is this prominent person basing that this fits the matter of church discipline? As a matter of fact, I am curious as to how other churches that practice discipline determine the criteria for such action beyond immorality, doctrinal heresy, or other blatant disobedience. Where does it get into secondary issues or preferences? I do believe in discipline. I am solidly fundamental and conservative, KJB, etc. But this matter of this young lady concerns me that there is a violation of the spirit of God’s Word in this area. We must remember the whole purpose of discipline is not what we do to get rid of those we do not like or who are trouble makers, but the goal is reconciliation.”

“First of all I Corinthians 5 is talking about fornicators that were rampant in Corinth and had gotten into the church. I believe Jesus condemned Pharisaistic attitudes as I’m afraid this dear brother has. ‘[Jesus] unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.’ It seems the dear brother has no compassion for her. ... If I run everyone that does not do as I say out of the church I would have to quit preaching and close the doors. Oh, how many souls would be lost because one of Christ’s churches strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel. Leave her alone and pray for her, and thank God for another witness at a college.”

“This attitude is what has driven many good people away from the church and even from the Lord. May God help us to realize there are many other problems to face that a young lady being force to wear pants. I dare say the man casting the stones at this young lady has issues in his life that someone could judge him for also.”

“It sounds like someone is making things harder than it needs to be for this young lady. Unfortunately, this type of behavior by mature Christians is just what Satan loves to instigate in trying to discourage young believers in being dedicated to their faith.”

“We are faced with this more now than ever. We have adopted the avenue of when an individual comes into our church, not blasting them or being brutal (I have known churches to be this way.) (Instead we have tried to get them close to another godly lady who builds a confidence in the person’s heart and then we do three things. First, we instruct as to why ladies need to dress modestly at God’s house and not just at God’s house but everywhere. Second, we purchase clothes for them if they have not the means to do so. Concerning the member who is influential and disagrees, approach him about purchasing her clothes. We have no right to condemn something we ourselves are not trying to correct. Third, we exercise patience to allow God to change people’s hearts. How many times I have witnessed this happening in our church and they have become great Christians and great members of our congregation.”

“She should attend the school suitably attired. If they remove her from school, that is their prerogative. By bowing to school rules contrary to biblical rules she is making decisions on how she lives.”

“Can the church help this girl with money to attend a school that will not undermine the standards of the girl or the church? Sure it will be a sacrifice but this may be what the church ought to do. We have tried helping people at times who even had some resources so that we could show in a positive way that we were for them and wanted to help them make the right decision. It sounds like this is a good girl who wants to do right. We ought to do all we can to help her. I believe there are options available to help and church discipline, which we practice and believe in, is too stringent in this case from the details that I have been given.”

“If the church has made a decision about the matter, this other ‘prominent person’ ought to submit to the leadership and leave it in God’s hands. This ‘prominent person’ seems to be in the wrong. Hebrews 13:17 Humbly submitted.”

“I believe that church discipline in this situation is going a little too far. I am a strong believer in church discipline but I also believe we had better be careful in our administration of it. As for the Lord’s Supper that young lady needs to be made aware of the danger of partaking with known sin in her life, but I don’t believe that the church can stop her from partaking.”

“I believe 1 Corinthians 5 type of discipline is reserved for false doctrine, immorality, or disorderly behavior. In my opinion, although I do not believe a woman ought to wear pants, the wearing of pants does not fit into either of those categories. The dismissal from the SS teaching position (a matter of Christian service standards as set by the local church) is sufficient discipline.”

“Church discipline in this matter is way out of bounds.”

“I would have the following questions for the fellow causing the disturbance. Is he ready to declare the wearing of pants by a girl to be equivalent to any sin in the list of heinous crimes cataloged in 1 Corinthians 5:11? I would ask the gentleman to provide a complete list of his convictions that would cause the censure of I Corinthians 5. Movie-theater attendance, card-playing, hair shorter than shoulder length on a lady or touching a man’s ears or collar? How about computer solitaire? Use of Nyquil? While we all hold our own convictions and standards, and all draw the line somewhere on each of these, with some room for disagreement on exactly where that line is, the lines drawn in Scripture are plain and clear and obvious to anyone who is honest with the text. Does the gentleman believe that if every member of his church were to make a list of their convictions, that he would be squeaky clean with no violations? Which convictions would rise to the level of a shunning offense, and which would be a matter of Christian liberty? And who gets to decide that? We are wise to stick with what the Scripture plainly says when it comes to a matter of church action.”

“It seems to me that bringing this girl before the church for discipline is overkill at the highest level. This young lady has been in Christ for three years. Praise the Lord for her growth, but when churches start making issues like this akin with blasphemy, heresy, and immorality, I think they have gone way overboard. And BTW, neither my wife nor my daughters wear pants. Don’t misunderstand me. I believe the issue of modest apparel is an important one. Is this good church going to bring every lady in the church that wear pants before the congregation? It just seems mighty extreme to me.”

“I am only an old grandma, but here is my reply. This is unbelievable! ... Keeping her from taking the Lord’s Supper sends a terrible message to the rest of her family.”

“If the church has standards then it is justified to not allow the young lady to teach but to bring her before the church in discipline is really ridiculous. I would suspect (with my thirty years as pastor of the church I founded) that the man wanting to do so needs to look into his own self and allow the Holy Spirit to make the decision; besides, this is the pastor's decision, anyhow.”

“I would tell the ‘prominent member’ in the church to mind his own business. 1Th 4:11 ‘And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you.’”

“I would be in full agreement that if the church has modest clothing as a requirement for Sunday School teachers, the young lady has disqualified herself to remain as a teacher. She, of course, should be told in the spirit of love, complete with an explanation. I would be in total disagreement with the man in the church who wants her disciplined for this issue. As I understand the scriptures, church discipline is reserved for certain types of issues which bring great reproach on the individual and the church, if allowed to continue. This is also spelled out in 1 Corinthians 5:11. It is this type of attitude that gives our Fundamental, Independent, Baptist Churches a bad name, a name for harshness. While I strongly agree that church discipline is necessary within the parameters of the Scripture, the type of issue dealt with here would only create a ‘witch hunt’ within the church. Of course, I do not know the man in question, I would dare say that he may also struggle in some areas of his life as well. In the lesser issues, not covered in 1 Cor 5:11, mercy and prayer is often the answer. I am so thankful for the mercy of God in my life, as I often fail Him and come short of His glory. Lu 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. Wisdom and discernment come from Christian growth. This young lady has not been saved very long and needs to be commended for the growth she has experienced and encouraged to continue to grow in the Lord.”

“Since she does not meet the standard, fine; don’t let her teach, but church discipline over that? I think is going a bit too far. Is she being immodest or seductive? We do not have a practice of wearing pants in our home but does this mean she is living in sin? I am all for separation and standards but this seems to be making mountain out of a mole hill sort of speaking. Does she need to be delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh? Or according to verse 13 is she really a wicked person because she is wearing trousers? I think it is simply going beyond the bounds of Scripture.”

“I feel this teenager girl needs guidance, love and understanding, not persecution. Compassion for our brethren should be paramount!”

“Since when do the beliefs of a ‘prominent person’ usurp the authority of the church? I understand about ‘prominent people’ and puffed-up arrogance and their willingness to wield their influence over God’s flock, but a church is not governed by an oligarchy. ... If she has agreed to ‘standards for workers’ and now cannot fulfill those, then she should not teach in a Bible Class/Sunday School, but Church Discipline...over pants???”

“The verse about causing a little one to stumble comes to mind. I spent seven years away from the Lord because I was judged harshly by people like him, when all I wanted was to serve and please the Lord.”

“It is the best example I have heard of transitioning from the ridiculous to the sublime. It is the epitome of legalism!”

“How many of us have sin in our lives?  Let him who is without sin amongst us cast the first stone.”

“The prominent member of the church should be shown the door not the girl.”

“Since when are a pants on women issue the criteria for partaking in the LORD’S supper? No, I'm not in favor of men's clothing on (Christian) women, including pants. My wife and two girls don’t own any pants. However, all new believers must be taught from the Word of God (i.e. The LORD) that women should maintain themselves as women, and not to wear that which pertaineth to a man. The (new)
believer must be dealt with in much patience, to say the least. The LORD I believe has ‘no problem’ molding a teachable Christian who is going to lovingly obey the LORD in all areas of life.”

“I think the prominent person in the church should be disciplined and not allowed to take the Lord's Supper for his harsh spirit until he repents. And by the way I don't feel pants are modest.”

“I would also suggest that the prominent person in the church that is seeking to have the young lady excluded from the Lord's Supper restore her by paying her way to school or organizing a joint effort to pay her way through school so that she would not need the scholarship and therefore not be obligated to follow the rule that he finds so offensive.”

“That she has been barred from teaching Sunday School seems sufficient a measure. In such a case as this, the men need not think they would compromise their zeal by exercising sweet moderation. ‘Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand’ (Philippians 4:5). W.E. Vines defines the word translated moderation thus: ‘equitable, fair, moderate, forbearing, not insisting on the letter of the law’; it expresses that considerateness that looks ‘humanely and reasonably at the facts of a case.’ May the Lord give us wisdom (James 3:17).”

“It seems to me that if she is saved then she is saved and she is well and truly in the Lord's will. The next step is to decide if we adopt the Regulative or the Normative principle of worship. If we are of the Regulative side then we will do as the Bible alone teaches. If of the normative -- well you can do what you want. 1 Corinthians 5 refers to fornication and this is not what the girl is about so she should not be judged from that perspective unless the person desiring it is wishing to persecute her. You can't do anything about her work commitments but she should not wear them at church if the church has a dress code. Perhaps enforce the dress code and ask her not to take Sunday school until she wears a skirt or whatever. As a born again Christian she has a perfect right to partake of communion and should NOT be refused because of something like this. Be careful that your molehill does not become mountainous and put you all in the shade. Do any or the other women wear lipstick, heavy makeup, have bright shiny jewelry, wear up to date fashion? Maybe they should be spoken to as well...”

“Woe to the one who by bitter harshness destroys her faith.”

“This teenager needs love to help her on her Christ walk and to cement a brick into her calling.”

“In all seriousness, this member should be approached by the pastor to back off. The pastor has an obligation to tend to the weak in his flock (if she is even truly a weak Christian. She seems to be coming to church for all the RIGHT reasons. This is not an issue to remove the girl over. It doesn’t sound like an obtuse girl or a girl in rebellion. Also, it sounds like the prominent member could be a thorn in the pastor’s side. I will be praying for the pastor. ... I cannot believe that Paul intended 1 Cor. 5 to be interpreted and used in the case as you described it. She is a fornicator? ... Someone ought to follow the prominent man around like a hawk and scrutinize his every move. Scan his computer drive! The man beating this drum, as described is probably guilty of one of the sins listed in 1 Cor. 5. I would spend my time analyzing his life. Some people will never be happy unless they can execute judgment. How about, since it is a sensitive/serious issue, pray and allow the Lord to work in the girl’s heart about the whole thing? How about the prominent member exercise FAITH that God can fix whatever may ail the young girl. I realize all cannot be fixed in this manner, but I have pastored long enough to realize that some things the Lord is better at handling without some folks’ personal involvement. My final vote is to vote out the prominent member!”

“I'm all for the girls and women not wearing pants. My wife and our girls don’t wear pants at all, and our church knows our stand, but on the other hand I’m not going to stop them from coming. I will let God deal with them (I just preach the word). As far as the Lord’s Supper I think that is taking it too far. ...This is a big delicate concern. You don’t want to lose her, and at the same time we have to keep the standards high.”

“In my opinion this is a difficult case because we do want to maintain Biblical dress standards in a world that is always working against Biblical values. I think the church discipline already implemented in removing her from her S.S. class is as strong of an action as should be taken.  The opinion of the man who wants to keep her from the Lord’s Supper is, I think, unwise & uncharitable.  I think this church should stand with the girl as she attends school by lovingly caring to see her grow in grace.  A spiritual lady in the church should become a very close friend to her.  That would be very important. If there is no sign of rebellion in this girl, I would stand with her as she goes through her education experience.  If there is a rebellious spirit present, she may well be lost to the world and her new opportunities for an education. Obviously, standards that are based on the word of God are very important.   But love, grace, and mercy are also important to be exercised by those in authority when there is a genuine desire in a young believer to walk pleasing to God. May God help this church to be led by the Spirit in all aspects of God’s Word.”

“She’s caught in a battle between standards, those of the school and those of the church. Either way she decides to go, it makes things difficult for her. If they side with the ‘prominent person’ simply because of his status, they've blown it because of their failure to heed James 2:1-4. Brother Cloud says that man is prominent, but does not say he is spiritual. Even a marginal Christian could try to force such an issue. He does however say that the girl’s growing in the Lord and faithful to the services, including prayer meeting. It seems they're at risk of causing her to stagnate in her faith rather than continue growth. And being they say that her wearing pants is a part of the school dress code, and not her disregard of Christian church standards (it says nothing of her wearing pants to the services, or while teaching Sunday School), I believe they've caused more harm than good. That prominent member used 1 Corinthians 5 as his justification for seeing her disciplined. Yet in that chapter, Paul writes of sins of rebellion. Verse 13 tells us, ‘But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.’ I hardly see her as wicked. When the writer notes the school’s standards are ‘loose pants,’ it’s my belief he’s noting pants that may be baggy, not those that are form-fitting, taking away from her modesty. Nor am I led to believe that they’re low, showing anything they should not. Surely we must be of good testimony among those that are unsaved to have them see Christ in us. Likewise, also show that same testimony among the saved, lest we cause someone to stumble. But to force her to wear something not beyond the pale of decent clothing while not in a church setting seems at best dictatorial, not something that would be helpful to the young lady, nor to the other members of the church.”

“It is a classic example of ‘straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.’ The ‘prominent person’ sounds like Diotrephes of III John 9 & 10.”

“It seems to me that the brother who would enact further discipline is the kind who would bring the world’s accusatory of ‘self-righteous Christian’ upon all our heads.”

“There were prominent people in Christ's time called Pharisees whom Christ dealt harshly with because their heart was not right. Outwardly they looked the part but inwardly they were full of dead bones, Matt 23. Discipline done right with a heart of love seeks to draw back a person, not to destroy or run off from our membership or flock. In dealing with this problem, try to mimic Christ and how he worked with patience John 8: 3-11, not the attitude of Pharisees.”

“Sounds like Diothrepes to me. Church discipline is surely not for these infractions of dress. What does the Pharisee’s wife or daughters wear when not at church? ... Thanks for listening to my rant. I’ve been preaching for almost 40 years and these things surely gripe me.”

“I would almost say that the prominent person if not careful could be brought up for church discipline for causing discord among the brethren. I think perhaps the key problem is the ‘prominent person.’”

“If the man is the only dissenting voice in the assembly, this needs to be pointed out to him as well, along with Scripture that speaks of the danger of schismatic and divisive persons within the body. Maybe he is the one that needs to be disciplined. Finally, maybe someone can suggest that this ‘prominent’ man undertake to finance the destitute young lady’s secondary education in its entirety at another institution more to his preference.”

“With reference to the Lord’s supper, 1 Corinthians 11:28 reads, ‘But let a man examine HIMSELF, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.’ We are told by scripture to judge ourselves, and we can infer from this verse that we should not be a judge of others when it comes to the Lord’s supper. That prominent person has no liberty to judge or determine the girl’s eligibility or ineligibility to partake of the Lord’s supper. Let’s hypothetically turn the tables and, say, the Lord decides to publicly reveal every thought from the heart of that man on a large screen in his church. If that man were totally honest, I’m pretty sure he would judge and disqualify himself from taking part in the Lord’s supper, too. Matthew 7:3, ‘And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?’”

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